Eleanor Hall: Australian Defence analysts and Indonesia watchers are raising concerns today about the merits of proposed joint-exercises involving Australia's Defence Forces and Indonesia's still controversial special forces, or Kopassus.

Australia's Army Chief has just concluded talks with Indonesia's Defence Minister in Jakarta, in which proposals for joint exercises on counter-terrorism and people smuggling were raised.

But even though there was no definite commitment to the exercises and the Indonesians say no timetable was discussed, concerns remain in some circles about Australia providing training assistance to an Indonesian force which has been linked to serious human rights abuses. Michael Vincent reports.

Michael Vincent: Australian defence officials have very real concerns about Indonesia's ability to respond to terrorist threats, specifically a hijacking, according to senior Indonesian specialist, Professor Harold Crouch, from the ANU (Australian National University).

Harold Crouch: The particular scenario that I heard was what would happen if, say, terrorists hijack a Qantas plane in Bali, well, for example. In that case, Australia couldn't do anything about that without the cooperation of the Indonesian security forces.

Now, technically in Indonesia internal security is a question for the police but the police would not have much capacity to deal with that sort of scenario and really, the only force in Indonesia that could deal with it is the Kopassus.

Michael Vincent: In other words, Australia has no choice but to build ties with the discredited organisation. A force Professor Crouch estimates is made up of 5,000 to 6,000 members.

But Kopassus does have its hands dirty. Recently implicated in the killing of a West Papua independence leader and a long list of other human rights abuses across the Archipelago. Military Analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, Aldo Borgu.

Aldo Borgu: We are dealing with a very shady organisation and, in many respects in the past, Kopassus has been more part of the problem than part of the solution.

Michael Vincent: What do you mean by that?

Aldo Borgu: Certainly their activities in human rights abuses in Timor, West Papua, in Aceh. Certainly their political links, as far as basically with parts of the Suharto regime and the like, means that it's certainly been viewed with suspicion even within Indonesia and there has been a number of efforts to try to reform the organisation.

Michael Vincent: Do we know of any links Kopassus may have with Muslim extremists in Indonesia and potential connections to Jemaah Islamiah?

Aldo Borgu: Look, certainly nothing that's come to anyone's attention that would raise any concerns but I don't think you can rule out that possibility. I mean, given their role within the political sphere, their role certainly in terms of supporting elements of the Suharto regime, it's certainly not out of the question to suggest that at some point in time those sort of links might not come to the surface.

Michael Vincent: Despite its record and the risks involved in sharing counter-terrorism skills with Kopassus, other defence analysts believe it's better to engage with them and hope to change them than let ties lapse.

And there's political reasons for that as well. Aldo Borgu says there's a long-standing view from within Defence headquarters in Canberra that Kopassus is the training ground for Indonesia's best and brightest military officers. And the Indonesian military elite has a substantial number of ex-special forces soldiers. But Professor Harold Crouch says that is no longer the case.

Harold Crouch: I think that was the argument that used to be put during the Suharto period, especially the late Suharto period when many of the top Indonesian officers did in fact have Kopassus background and were considered to be the best and brightest and all that sort of thing.

But since then Kopassus has damaged its own reputation in Indonesia. A lot of this after the fall of Suharto, all sorts of human rights abuses and that sort of thing came into the public debate and even in Indonesia itself many people are very wary of Kopassus, including people in the military itself.

So at present the Commander of the Armed Forces is not a Kopassus person. The Chief of the Staff of the Army is not a Kopassus person. So, in fact there are a lot of senior officers nowadays who are not Kopassus.

Michael Vincent: Does that extend to regional commanders?

Harold Crouch: I'm not sure of all of them, but generally the role of Kopassus has become much more limited. So, I would think it's not a good idea to be too closely associated with Kopassus.

Michael Vincent: But you believe there is a practical element, a practical reason, which deals more with security for Australian nationals?

Harold Crouch: Yeah, and that's a very limited sort of training. Now that's, I mean, I can see the argument for, I can see the argument against, but there's a limited case for that. A more general engagement with Kopassus, I would say at this stage it ... that should not happen.

Eleanor Hall: Indonesian specialist, Professor Harold Crouch, from the Australian National University, speaking there to Michael Vincent.