Interview by Philip Smucker. Solo, Indonesia – Even as Indonesia has gained the upper hand against religiously-inspired extremism, the spiritual mentor behind the Bali bombings, Abu Bakar Ba'asyir, says he is confident that both time and Allah are on his side. He says that events across the Islamic world are conspiring to destroy the "crusade" of his greatest enemy, United States President George W Bush.

"Bush is a very stubborn man," says Ba'asyir, reclining in a white shirt and plaid waist wrap on a couch in the reception hall of his religious boarding school, al-Mukhmin, a series of dingy concrete classrooms set on the grounds of a former commune in Central Java. "Bush doesn't really know that he is losing this war and this is one of Allah's ways of undermining his crusade to destroy Islam," he adds.

Indonesia's own successful anti-terrorism efforts should give Ba'asyir and his associates pause. Jemaah Islamiyah (JI) radicals have been sidelined politically and ostracized in Indonesia for their inspirational roles in the Bali bombings. Ba'asyir, 69, who has consistently claimed that JI does not exist, recently served over two years in prison when Indonesian judges said that while he had not been involved in the Bali attacks, he had given his approval for the plot.

But temporary setbacks do not stand in the way of final victory in this long war of attrition, he insists. Ba'asyir, a man who couches his diatribes to avoid the appearance of inciting direct attacks, refers to the Bali bombers on death row as "counter-terrorists with good intentions gone awry", and also claims to take his own inspiration from al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden. Excerpts from his recent interview with Asia Times Online contributor Philip Smucker follow:

Asia Times Online: What kind of pressure has the Indonesian government put on your al-Mukhmin school and your religious colleagues?

Ba'asyir: There is certainly pressure from the government in the form of the police, particularly the special police force Number 88. This body of the police force was established in part by the US and has also been funded by the US and is basically a US tool to fight Islam in Indonesia.

ATol: What role does the US play in the war against radical Islamic groups in Indonesia and beyond?

Ba'asyir: The US is a tool for the Zionists. The US has a program and has a crusade that is being carried out in an unfair way, which is by spreading the message that there is Islamic terrorism in this world and basically all the enemies, all the terrorists are Islamists and all the people who fight for sharia law. Everyone who is active is left with the stigma that they are terrorists. They are being arrested and imprisoned.

Yes, there are cases when some persons in some Islamic groups carry out bombings here in Indonesia. It is also unfortunately the case that they are bombing places that are relatively safe. It is easy for them to become prey to US efforts to stigmatize all Muslims.

ATol: Have you rethought your initial approval of the Bali bombings?

Ba'asyir: The bombers were carrying out their acts in Indonesia, a relatively safe place. When events occur, they [are] taken as justification by the government and US. They say, "See what the Muslims are doing, this is why we have to fight terrorism!"

ATol: So you are saying that bombings in safe places – like Bali and at the Marriot Hotel in Jakarta – are bad ideas that give ammunition and fuel to the Americans?

Ba'asyir: Yes.

ATol: Are there young Indonesian Muslims bent on engaging in jihad against the United States? How strong is this movement?

Ba'asyir: Among the youth, many want to fight the US because of the aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan. And in Indonesia they attack US interests, but I think it is a mistake to do that here in Indonesia against US interests because Indonesia is a safe place, a safe country, safe from conflict.

So I, for instance, I prefer that it be done through dakwa, through preaching. America is instigating a war of ideas, therefore we should fight back with our own war of thoughts, issues, preaching.

ATol: So you are condemning the Bali bombers?

Ba'asyir: No. The bombers are actually counter-terrorists because they are opposing US terrorism. They are mujahids.

ATol: How do you fight back against what the US government is doing and saying? What is your strategy?

Ba'asyir: What we try to do is counter the lies, break down the lies. We want to uncover the truth that the Koran teaches. This activity in and of itself is much more productive and efficient than bombing because just by doing that – preaching the truth – I am being called all kinds of things. There was even an attempt to take me to Guantanamo, [Cuba] but fortunately I was saved by Allah.

ATol: You call the Bali bombers counter-terrorists, but some would argue that by calling them counter-terrorists, you are encouraging them to engage in this activity.

Ba'asyir: What I was saying before is that what they were intending to do was right. However, the method was wrong, they were bombing a safe place, so the point here is how you do it as well – the method you use.

ATol: Don't you think you are encouraging more young men to bomb?

Ba'asyir: They are not terrorists, they are not instigating terror, that is not their intention. They want to fight terror. I don't think that by saying this that it will encourage them. Only the method is wrong. But it is not right to call them terrorists. Theirs is a reaction, not an action.

ATol: Many people think that students who have attended your school here have taken their inspiration from Osama bin Laden. Can you tell me what kind of an influence he has been on students in your school and on young people in Indonesia?

Ba'asyir: Generally, the influence of [bin Laden] is good. His intention to fight the US is good. However, the methods and steps that he uses are not necessarily to be applied here in Indonesia. You have to take heed of the situation, but generally speaking it is good.

Again, the steps he uses in other countries are not necessarily applicable here. Some young Muslims here clearly idolize him and others would not. There are also students who have quit the school, my school, because they would not necessarily agree with his teachings.

ATol: Do you think [bin Laden] is a positive inspiration on young people in Islamic world in general?

Ba'asyir: Generally it is positive. What he is trying to teach, to pass on, is jihad against the US. He opposes US terrorism against countries. Jihad can be done through arms and can be done through words as I'm doing now – as preaching.

ATol: Has the US military's failure to catch bin Laden made him even more of a hero in the Islamic world?

Ba'asyir: As long as his intent is to uphold Islam, God willing he will always be safe and saved by God. You can start to see the effects now. Western power is weakening and, on the other hand, Osama has linked up with the Taliban and others and is gaining power. I always believe that in the end Islam will have victory. Whoever is trying to block or fight Islam will eventually lose. Therefore all the sacrifices will bear fruit.

ATol: What are the tools you use to fight back against George W Bush's "war on terror"?

Ba'asyir: For Islam, the truth is Islam. There were many prophets but Mohammed was the last and he trumps the others. We spread the truth, or dakwa, orally, over the radio and Internet; through all kinds of technical tools.

ATol: Do you think the US is getting the message that [in regards to Iraq] it may be inspiring more terrorists than it can possibly kill?

Ba'asyir: I'm sure that many Americans understand they are losing the battle in Iraq. We can see – at least domestically – that there is more pressure against the war. And there is no doubt that the US is failing and losing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

However, President Bush is a very stubborn man. He is very extremist. But this is also one of God's ways of destroying his entire crusade. Allah is letting him be stubborn, be himself and, in doing so, he creates all this mess and therefore eventually it will end in defeat.

ATol: So, you think it is a message from God but that Bush doesn't understand the message?

Ba'asyir: I have written a letter to Bush saying he should not use God's name to destroy Islam. The only way that Bush can survive is for him to do what is being ordered by God which is to believe in Islam, to convert to Islam. If he wants to be safe he should take up Islam.

ATol: Do you think it is possible for the US to change foreign policy and to live in peace with Islam?

Ba'asyir: In Islam, you cannot force someone to convert to Islam. But what is fair and just is Islamic law. It is quite possible to have peace with the US, but the US has to distance itself from Israel or decide not be used as a tool by the Zionists. But peace is the objective of Islam – to live in peace.

[Philip Smucker is a commentator and journalist based in South Asia and the Middle East. He is the author of Al-Qaeda's Great Escape: The Military and the Media on Terror's Trail (2004).]