[Interview with US Deputy Secretary of State Paul Wolfowitz. Sections not directly related to South-East Asia and Aceh have been edited out - JB.]

Newsmaker: Paul Wolfowitz

Margaret Warner: Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz is just back from a five-day trip to the area devastated by last month's tsunami. He visited Thailand, Sri. Lanka, and Indonesia, a country where he once served as US ambassador. Mr. Secretary, welcome.

Paul Wolfowitz: Good to be here.

Margaret Warner: What is your assessment after being there of how the recovery is going, how much has really been accomplished?

Paul Wolfowitz: An enormous amount has been accomplished everywhere and a lot of it is thanks to the ability of our military to get there quickly and to do things nobody else could do.

I think it's probably not an exaggeration to say tens of thousands of lives have been saved because we were able to get food and water to people who otherwise would have starved or been dehydrated.

But it's very different in different places. Thailand has already moved past the immediate relief and into recovery and, in fact, they're helping other countries in the region. That's at one end of the scale.

India has got a huge problem, but they're largely self-sufficient. That's why we didn't go there. Indonesia, where I was ambassador, is also the one that's hardest hit in every possible respect.

It's where the earth – they had a record-breaking earthquake and then they were hit by the tsunami. The numbers are probably – they're well over 150,000 dead or missing.

And it's in a very remote part of the country, which is hard to get to in the first place and once you get there, it's hard to get to the people who need help. So they're still trying to provide immediate relief and the recovery operation is going to be a staggering task.

Joint relief efforts

Margaret Warner: Now I gather the United States has, what, 16,000 troops in the region. How long do you think they'll be needed or wanted?

Paul Wolfowitz: Well, they're starting to come down already in Sri Lanka. They're not going to be needed in Thailand much longer, except for coordinating a region-wide effort, which the Thais have been very helpful in.

In Sri Lanka, we're, in some cases, doing things like delivering fruits and vegetables. They don't need us for that. In fact, we moved two of our big water purification units from Sri Lanka to the Maldives where they're more needed.

But in Indonesia, there's a real need. And when you ask the question of "are they wanted," it is stunning to me. I was ambassador there for three years and these are proud people, properly so. And they're people who are very suspicious of foreign militaries from any country, and yet they really open their arms to us.

They've taken away all the restrictions that might have applied. They recognize that no country could have handled a task like this – challenge like this on their own.

And there was a little – an indicator, I think, of Indonesian opinion when one politician came out and said our forces had to leave by March 26.

The president himself, when he met with him and with many ministers, partly because it was the right thing to do, but I think also because they were reading.

The Indonesian public was saying "Wait a minute. Don't ask the Americans to leave until we're ready to take over." They said "This is a timeline, it's not a deadline," and I think that's the attitude we've encountered.

Margaret Warner: Now while you were in Jakarta, you did say – at least are reported to have said – that you thought that the US should ease up on some of the restrictions we've had between the US Military and the Indonesian military, the ones that were imposed after basically the rampage in East Timor, what, in the early '90s. Why do you think it's time to change that?

Paul Wolfowitz: Well, let me be clear. I also said those restrictions are there because of a real concern about abuses by the Indonesian military. And it's a concern now that – not only our concern, but the newly elected democratic government of Indonesia shares that concern.

And that's part of the context of my remarks is last September they had a remarkably successful free, fair presidential election. It was only the second in their history.

This is a country that's moving in an impressive way, given the challenges they face, toward democracy, and they have a government committed to it.

So I think it's important to help that government manage its own military. And now it's even more important to help that government manage this huge challenge of the humanitarian assistance.

So I also said – and I mean it – this is something we want to consult with the Congress on because the views of the Congress on this are strongly felt, and for good reason.

Margaret Warner: Let me just ask you this. How would have – and I should have explained what we're talking about in terms of a relationship – it's the supply of equipment and it's training – how would resuming that help the democratic transformation or help the government in Jakarta have more control over the Indonesian military? Could it have the opposite effect?

Paul Wolfowitz: It could. That's why you need to calibrate these things carefully and why I wouldn't say we suddenly opened the door to unrestricted supply of lethal military assistance.

No, but one of the things we've done is severely restricted the opportunities for Indonesian officers to train in the United States. And I think, in my view, and I care a lot about the human rights aspects of this, I can't say that every officer who is trained here becomes a human rights advocate.

But the current president, for example, who is a democratic reformer, was a military officer who was one of the last people trained here. I think we can have a more positive influence that way. I think there are certain things we can do and we're doing some of them now.

The Congress doesn't prevent us from non-lethal assistance, and we've finally found a way to help them repair their transport aircraft so that they can get humanitarian assistance up to Aceh. That's a good thing, although it involves more contact with their military.

Margaret Warner: Do you think, as some observers in the region have said, though, that the Indonesian military is using this crisis as a way of actually tightening their control over the rebels in Aceh?

Paul Wolfowitz: You know, this is a tragedy, as people have said, of apocalyptic or biblical proportions. It's just enormous.

We have a chance to give some meaning to that tragedy by moving to a better future, including particularly trying to move toward a political resolution of that problem in Aceh that you alluded to. If the military gets in the way of that, then the military should be pushed to get out of the way.

But if the military can be brought on board and the Acehnese people, who are very distinctive people who occupy this one province in the extreme west of Indonesia, can see that their government and maybe even their military is able to deliver something good to them instead of just oppression, I think there's a chance to move to a new era that would benefit the whole region.

Margaret Warner: Mr. Secretary, thank you.

Paul Wolfowitz: Thank you.