[The Indonesian military has discharged 20 soldiers accused of involvement in a bloody gun battle between the army and police in North Sumatra. Army Chief General Ryamizard Ryacudu personally tore off the rank insignias of the men, at the headquarters of the regional command in Medan. The accused, who're expected to face further charges, were all members of the army airborne battalion and had allegedly taken part in armed attack on a district police post in which seven people were killed.]

Presenter/Interviewer: Sen Lam

Speakers: Aristides Katoppo, chief editor and publisher of Sinar Harapan in Jakarta

Katoppo: The police used to be under one command with the military before but after the reform the police became independent and no longer under the armed forces commander. I think of course that the separation has created some problems because it has been done very abruptly and speedily while for so many years internal security was always in the hands of the Indonesian army in particular. There were some rivalries, it happens.

Lam: So do you think there's some measure of resentment by certain elements in certain sections of the Indonesian military towards the police?

Katoppo: Well I think there is some resentment, yes, and more important also both are sometimes doing let's say extracurricular work like providing security for businesses.

Lam: And those extracurricular activities sometimes extended to illegal activities as well?

Katoppo: Well maybe the protection business and some lucratives like illegal casinos, not big casinos, small-scale gambling venues and other unsavoury business.

Lam: And indeed reports from Jakarta say the incident was the latest in a series over the past three years, are the authorities trying to do something about this?

Katoppo: Yes clearly I think the army chief of staff has come to the side and apologised publicly and broadcast over the radio to the police but also to the people and berated soldiers who conducted trespass on army discipline. Given the circumstances and particularly in Indonesia where most of the army or police have to look after their own logistics, sometimes they have to compete for it, it opens the way that there will be clashes.

Lam: When you say looking after their own logistics, does that include the payment of the soldiers and policemen as well?

Katoppo: And the food, and you name it, logistics, the whole range of it, less than 30 per cent is coming from the budget.

Lam: So are these skirmishes by and large localised or might they have the potential to escalate out of control?

Katoppo: I think it's very localised, well I mean what happened in Binjai was clearly out of control, but it was on a unit level. I think the army chief and the police chiefs went out of their way to show that this rivalry doesn't exist at the top. I don't think the military and the police you know and these local clashes will not occur on a national scale.