Gary LaMoshi, Denpasar, Bali – Six years ago, academic Greg Barton understood why Indonesian moderates were reluctant to clash with the country's radical Islamist minority.

Then, Barton contended that the public relations savvy of Muslim extremists combined with ambiguous election results, varied platforms of so-called Islamic parties, and political coalition-building made it difficult for moderates to challenge them effectively.

"With the objective data painting such a complex picture, is it any wonder that it has elicited such a confused response?" the author of Indonesia's Struggle: Jemaah Islamiyah and the Soul of Islam he said.

Now, Barton has a simpler answer for the failure of Indonesia's leadership to confront radicals: a "lack of moral courage" that starts at the very top of the government.

Herb Feith Research Professor for the study of Indonesia at Melbourne's Monash University, Barton's authorized biography of Indonesia's first post-reform president Abdurrahman Wahid won him notice beyond academic circles in Australia and Indonesia. His next book, Islam's Other Nation: Faith in a Democratic Indonesia, is due out next year.

A former faculty member at the Pentagon's Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies in Hawaii, where he remains an adjunct, Barton also currently serves as director of the Center for Islam and the Modern World and deputy United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization chair in Interreligious and Intercultural Relations-Asia Pacific at Monash. His next project is to examine progressive Islam and social currents in Indonesia and another pivotal secular Muslim majority nation, Turkey.

He spoke to Asia Times Online while visiting Indonesia as a member of the inaugural Presidential Friends of Indonesia study program that brought academics from 15 countries to Yogyakarta and Jakarta. Interview excerpts follow:

Asia Times Online: Since we last talked six years ago – to paraphrase your book's title – who's winning the struggle for the soul of Islam in Indonesia? Under President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, are things moving in a positive direction, negative direction, or sideways?

Greg Barton: In general, things are moving in a positive direction. There's a moderate mainstream center that's holding. There's an equilibrium, but it's a dynamic equilibrium. We're going to see a constant state of contestation. There's going to be a struggle between groups to see who controls the middle.

ATOL: What are signs to watch for indicating which side is winning?

GB: If we saw progressive groups being inhibited, that would change the dynamic.

ATOL: What would indicate that progressives are being sidelined?

GB: The anti-pornography law that was passed over objections from non-Muslims is one example. There's also a proposed anti-blasphemy law. In Pakistan, the anti-blasphemy law has been used in a pernicious, cynical fashion. These laws can be used to stir up a mass reaction.

Indonesian activists look north at Malaysia, which has laws against conversion from Islam and apostasy. Malaysia has religious police going around during Ramadan enforcing the fast. It has religious courts that take precedence over civil courts for Muslims. That's the sort of thing that worries Indonesian moderates. Indonesia isn't going to become a Muslim state like Iran.

ATOL: Is the trend toward Islamization growing in Indonesia?

GB: If you look at the elections, PKS [Prosperous Justice Party] got 9% of the vote. The preeminent radical Muslim party hit a glass ceiling. When it comes to hard choices, people don't choose radicalism.

However, a large portion of society is sympathetic toward some of the radicals' positions. A majority of Indonesian Muslims support banning Amadiyah [a breakaway Muslim sect]. Because of that support, the government is reluctant to crack down on FPI [the Islamic Defenders Front that uses violence against its targets in the name of Islam].

If the government had the moral courage to stand up to these guys, it wouldn't face a broad backlash, in my opinion. These groups have very limited support – less than 10%.

ATOL: So why doesn't the government stand up to them? What is behind that reluctance?

GB: I believe it's a lack of moral courage. The president is a decent man, but not courageous politically. Also, his cabinet includes members of Islamic parties, and his governing coalition is dependent on PKS and it manages to wield its influence in disproportion to its numbers. If he [Yudhoyono] did speak up, he'd find society on his side.

It's not just the president – police and local politicians are also reluctant to act against radicals. The problem is not unique to Indonesia. Look at the issue of gun control in the US. Privately, people and politicians acknowledge it's necessary. But they don't want to face the consequences from a vocal minority. The minority is very clever at bringing their power to bear on the debate.

ATOL: Do you fear that the reluctance to speak out could lead to a dictatorship again, this time under the flag of Islam?

GB: First, I think you have to remember that the Suharto regime didn't happen in a vacuum. It was the Cold War era. Suharto came to power with the backing of the US, and its allies supported it.

Today in Indonesia, the level of education is higher, so there's less likelihood of people simply following along. Many people do speak out today against intolerance.

If we did see an extended period of political uncertainty, it could lead to a politician playing the Islamic card. It happened in Malaysia. [Former premier] Mahathir Mohamad was an ultranationalist who shifted to religious language, not because he believed it, but because it was convenient and served his purpose.

In the realm of secularist national politics in Indonesia, if someone tries to play the populist card, it can do damage. But populist politics are a regular feature of democratic society everywhere in the world. It's not unique to Indonesia.

ATOL: In our interview six years ago, you said, "Thoughtful engagement with the Indonesian police and, arguably, with carefully chosen sections of the military is necessary and important, but discredited units such as Kopassus [an elite commando unit frequently used to quell political dissent under former president Suharto] should be avoided at all costs."

As I'm sure you know, last month the US resumed military ties with Kopassus. What do you think of the decision?

GB: It's one of those areas where the devil is in the details. Things have changed with the armed forces, there has been a shift. The military has decisively moved away from politics. There has also been a generational change, a new crop of officers that weren't part of the Suharto era. It's good that they have international engagement as part of a positive drive toward professionalism.

But there needs to be careful scrutiny and control of who participates. The main thing is that it's not a free-for-all.

ATOL: You're doing research about Turkey and comparing it with Indonesia. What are some of your key findings?

GB: It's good to see that the two countries are drawing closer. They have a cultural connection. Islam came to Indonesia via merchants from India. But their Islam was a very Persian form of Islam. Islam in Turkey is also very Persian. It's a quiescent, pluralist form of Islam that helped both countries evolve into secular democracies.

Over the past 15 years, Turkey's government has gotten more representative. Society is generally socially conservative and religious, and government now reflects that.

Indonesia and Turkey are stable, secular democracies where Islam plays a major role in public life. But in both countries, people don't want an overt link between state and religion. That augurs well for the future.

There's been a perception that the Arab world is the center of Islam. Turkey and Indonesia represent progressive developments on the geographic periphery of Islam.

ATOL: But on the other hand, Indonesia has seen a recent spate of church burnings.

GB: It's shameful that Lutheran Bataks [people from the Lake Toba region in Sumatra] can't worship in peace in Jakarta. As long as the government stands up to these fringe groups, it's fine. When it doesn't, there's trouble. Thuggish behavior is from guys trying to see how far they can go.

The overall sentiment here is to live in harmony but we're seeing some cowardly behavior from the president's office on down. What's comforting is that some of the most strident voices speaking out for tolerance are from Muslims as well as religious minorities. There's never going to be a situation where these sorts of things are not contested. What's important is that progressive elements speak up and the majority comes onside. As I said, it's an ongoing dynamic equilibrium.

ATOL: You're participating in the Ubud Writers Festival this year. Are events like that a unifying force, or are they divisive, highlighting that Bali with its Hindu culture is outside the Indonesian mainstream?

GB: When you ask people in Jakarta where they're going on holiday, they say Bali. There's a feeling that's strengthened in recent years that Bali is a national treasure.

It's worth noting the absence of international literary festivals in Yogyakarta, the cultural capital, and Jakarta, the national capital. Ideally, over time, the Ubud festival will show the way for festivals in Yogyakarta and Jakarta. Ubud's [festival] theme this year, Unity in Diversity, the national motto, is a good model to show the way.

[Longtime editor of award-winning investor rights advocate eRaider.com, Gary LaMoshihas written for Slate and Salon.com, and works an adviser to Writing Camp (www.writingcamp.net). He first visited Indonesia in 1994 and has tracking its progress ever since.]