[There is a growing backlash in Indonesia over the arrest of Abu Bakar Bashir. A powerful visitor went to visit him in hospital recently, the chairman of one of Indonesia's largest Muslim organisations, Muhammadiyah. After the meeting, Professor Ahmad Syafii Marrif said that Bashir is a "scapegoat", arrested only after pressure from the United States. Tony Jones asked Professor Syafii about the comments which have had extensive coverage in both Australia and Jakarta.]

Transcript:

Tony Jones: Well, there's a growing backlash in Indonesia over the arrest of Abu Bakar Bashir.

A powerful visitor went to visit him in hospital recently, the chairman of one of Indonesia's largest Muslim organisations, Muhammadiyah.

After the meeting, Professor Ahmad Syafii Marrif said that Bashir is a "scapegoat", arrested only after pressure from the United States. His comments have had extensive coverage both here and in Jakarta, from where he joins us now.

Tony Jones: Professor, thanks for joining us.

Ahmad Syafii Maarif, chairman Muhammadiyah: Thank you.

Tony Jones: Why do you say that Abu Bakar Bashir is a scapegoat?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Yeah, because – I think the police have not enough evidence, hard and legal evidence to arrest him, you see. So I still, I have still to wait for further evidence for this. Otherwise people will speak out about his arrest, you see.

Tony Jones: You've also said he's only been arrested from pressure from a dictating country, the US. What did you mean by that?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Yeah, that's one of the possibilities, because Abu Bakar was arrested based on the statement made by Omar al-Faruq before. Who was captured by the Indonesian police before that.

But then the – one mysterious thing happened, you see. Al-Faruq was not investigated in Indonesia. The Indonesian intelligence offered him to the US intelligence agency. I think this is a mystery, you see.

Tony Jones: Sorry to interrupt you, but isn't that because it was clear that he was working with the al-Qa'ida organisation?

And let me ask you this, if I can, do you accept the evidence that Omar al-Faruq has given the US and now also Indonesian investigators points directly at Abu Bakar Bashir as a central figure planning terrorist acts?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Yeah, I asked when I visited Abu Bakar Bashir last week, I ask him, "Mr Bashir, please tell me sincerely, do you know Mr Al-Faruq?" The answer I got was, he knew nothing about this guy, you see. I think the problem is – is Mr Al-Faruq had been taken to US base in Afghanistan. So it would be not very easy for us, you see, to come to conclusion that Abu Bakar was the – one of the masterminds of many bombings in Indonesia.

Tony Jones: Abu Bakar Bashir has said many things, among them he's claimed the Bali bombing was engineered by foreign intelligence services. He points the finger at the US for having organised that bombing. Do you agree with him there?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: No, no. That's too early to say that, you see, because we are still waiting for further evidence for this.

Tony Jones: The Australian Government has also identified Bashir as the leader of Jemaah Islamiah, and called for his arrest. I mean, do you believe that they also are dictating to Indonesia?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: I do not know because the – the name of Jemaah Islamiah, I just know this name recently, you see, because before we knew nothing about this Jemaah.

Tony Jones: So you don't believe what you and most Indonesians that read the 'Time' magazine that set out the allegations of Omar al-Faruq. Do you not believe, for example, that Jemaah Islamiah exists inside Indonesia, that you have terrorists there?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Yeah, I think until the al-Faruq is taken to – is brought to Indonesia and to confront him to Mr Bashir, it will be very difficult for me to believe that Abu Bakar Bashir was part of al-Faruq's networking.

Tony Jones: What do you think of the religious teachings of Abu Bakar Bashir? For example, this is from one of his sermons, "Allah has divided humanity into two. The followers of Allah and the followers of Satan."

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Yeah. That's – that's his interpretation, you see. I think Abu Bakar Bashir is a single-minded person, I think.

So I do not agree with his understanding of religion, and I don't agree with his strategy to achieve his ideal, you see, because last year he was – he invited me to his office in Jakarta and I came.

And then we made a dialogue and at the end of that I told him my different interpretation and opinion cannot be reconciled, therefore I told him we have to stop our discussion now. Although we are still brothers.

Tony Jones: Don't you think, though, it's very dangerous what he's been doing here? He says himself that he's taught his students about jihad, that that's the highest Islamic lesson. Isn't it dangerous to be teaching young men to go off and fight a holy war?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: I think his followers remain insignificant until now. I told you I do not agree with him about this. I can advise him to understand Islam more properly and wisely, you see.

But this radical group, this militant groups, I think appears in Indonesia because of the domestic problems, because of the domestic problems because of the non-existence of justice and also the law enforcement does not function well in Indonesia.

And also corruption is rampant everywhere. These social ills, you see, have encouraged the radicalism and militancy takes a role in Indonesia.

Tony Jones: Professor Syafii, that has also happened in other countries like Egypt and the Saudi Arabia and the end result has been the development of organisations like al-Qa'ida, like Jemaah Islamiah. Is it so hard to imagine that those young men who he says have gone off from his school to fight the jihad in Bosnia, Chechnya and other places that they've also become connected to al-Qa'ida, many of them appear to have, his own students?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Yeah, the danger of course – of course the element of dangers are there. But not all Muslims agree with this interpretation. Islam as a belief system is one. But the interpretation of it can be many and varied, you see.

I also – what happened in US before there are also militant groups – Jones, I forget his name. Also he developed some kind of religious radicalism there. Radicalism is – yeah, OK.

Tony Jones: Do you see the point that I'm making here? You have come out now and said the reason he's been arrested is because Indonesia has been dictated to by the US. When in fact the reason he's been arrested is that people are afraid of what he's been doing in your country.

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: No. I think – because he was arrested mainly because of the statement made by al-Faruq, you see, as we can read in 'Time' magazine a few weeks ago. I am still waiting for enough evidence for – OK.

Tony Jones: Are you then worried that his arrest will serve to radicalise many young, now moderate Muslims? Will they see him and think that he's going to become a martyr?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Ah, no. I hope this will not happen. Because Muhammadiyah has moderate Muslims organisations who will monitor this possibility.

Tony Jones: The Indonesian Government now has the power to keep him under arrest, under these emergency decrees, for many months, if necessary, while they investigate what he's done. Do you think they should do that, they should keep him away from his students until they completely investigate this matter and the Bali bombing, for that matter?

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Why did the Indonesian Government do it just recently? Why didn't the Indonesian Government do it before? Because I think...

Tony Jones: Perhaps because you've had on your soil the worst terrorist act since September 11.

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: That's what I have to weigh the evidence, otherwise I cannot speculate about this.

Tony Jones: Alright, we will leave it there. Professor Syaffi, thank you very much for joining us. We do appreciate you for taking the time.

Ahmad Syafii Maarif: Thank you, very, very much.