Defense Minister Juwono Sudarsono was on a mission impossible that cold wintry week in Washington, DC, on March 12-19, when temperatures hit close to zero degrees Celsius. His objective was to thaw military relations between Indonesia and the United States.

The US had halted its International Military Education and Training (IMET) program to Indonesia since 1992. It was in reaction to their assessment of the TNI's (Indonesian Military) excessive brutality in the Santa Cruz incident of November 1991 in Dili, East Timor, which killed 56 East Timorese. This reputation remained, even though Indonesia underwent radical changes: Suharto stepped down, triggering reforms that sidelined the military's political role. "We are in an image war," said Sudarsono.

Changing the image of the TNI is the ambition of 63-year-old Sudarsono. As a former Deputy Governor of the National Defense Institute, he does not consider it fair to back the TNI into a corner while it lacks resources to improve its professionalism and its soldiers' welfare. He feels Indonesia is fortunate to remain united, despite an armed forces that must exist with a bare minimum.

Sudarsono was Defense Minister twice: today and once under President Abdurrahman Wahid. Perhaps because of his wide network of friends among the military, Sudarsono is known as a civilian with much empathy towards the military.

During the 1998 reform movement, he said Indonesia needed a military leadership-a view that brought him protests. Today, in the midst of bickering political parties and civilian politicians, he is still convinced that a military leadership is much needed. "The proof is that in the latest elections, the people voted in a president from the military," he said.

Tempo reporters Nezar Patria, Arif Zulkifli and photographer Bernard Chaniago met with Sudarsono last Thursday at his Defense Department office. Clad in a brown suit, this former dean of the Political Science Department of the University of Indonesia, looks as dapper as he did when he was the idol of female students. The difference now is that he looks tired all the time, following a stroke a few years back. Following are excerpts of a two-hour interview:

What exactly were you doing in the United States?

I explained the TNI's position within the process of consolidating democracy in Indonesia. I said, the TNI, particularly the army, plays a very important role, although officially it can no longer be involved in politics. The general framework of political life in Indonesia is still weak, especially among the political parties, civil society, the NGOs and the media.

What was their reaction?

They understand that the presence of the TNI behind the scenes is still needed because the TNI is the only institution that can be present on a national scale.

Are there signs of the arms embargo being lifted?

The first phase is the IMET program, about education and training. I said that TNI officers sent over there do not need to get degrees. Perhaps in the early ranks they could be given a maximum of five months so their career is not affected.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced the resumption of IMET before you left for the US. So your presence there was just to reinforce it?

Condoleezza's statement is an executive decision which still needs the support of the House of Representatives and the Senate. I met two critical senators from the Democratic Party, Senator Patrick J. Leahy from Vermont and Senator Russell Feingold from Wisconsin. The two are the most critical yet the most lacking in knowledge about the situation here. I explained that the Indonesian soldier's monthly salary is no more than US$70. Our budget is only half of our minimum requirements-US$2.1 billion, when we actually need US$5.2 billion a year. I described the TNI as the best underpaid defense forces.

From the executive side, whom did you meet?

I met with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Deputy Secretary of State, Robert B. Zoellick.

What other criticisms did the US Congress have of Indonesia?

Two issues: the first is still on the 1999 Timor Leste case, which they regard as a gross violation of human rights by the TNI, especially six senior officers. Secondly, the case of the Timika shooting in August 2002, where two Americans were killed.

On the Timor Leste incident, what was your explanation?

First, I said that the process of justice is not a case of impunity, because the five officers are currently appealing their verdicts. To honor our legal system, we cannot intervene.

On the Timika case?

I told them an arrest warrant on Antonius Wamang (a member of the rebel OPM group suspected of killing the two Americans-Ed.) had been issued by the Police Chief. We have also worked with the FBI on this. We just need to arrest that man. I said this was difficult because Wamang is thought to have crossed the border into Papua New Guinea.

So Patsy Spiers, wife of one of the Timika victims, has been the most vocal critic of Indonesia...

She has already stated that she understood and that she appreciated the efforts of President Yudhoyono to track this case down. I was also tasked with presenting her with a letter from the president. But because she was then overseas, I left the letter with the Indonesian embassy.

Other than human rights cases, what else is the focus of the US Congress?

They asked for transparency and cooperation from the TNI-owned foundations. I told them I was in the process of listing again all of TNI's businesses. I have met twice with the Justice and Human Rights Minister to review businesses and the military foundations. We will look at the legal aspects and the Finance Minister will evaluate its revenues to the state. Together with me, the two ministers will list the data until this coming October. When that is done, the Minister for State-Owned Enterprises (SOEs) will pre-select the ones which need to be data-processed and which to discard.

While the process continues, the TNI is operating as usual?

Yes. So it is still not yet under the SOEs Department's authority. Only after all is completed, can the holding company under the SOEs Department be formed, with their inputs. Hopefully, by October, they can be released.

For as long as its existence, the SOEs Department could never untie itself from the interests of political parties. Aren't you worried that the TNI businesses will be fought over by people?

With an inter-departmental team, the SOEs Department will be balanced by the Defense Department and the Finance Department. As the national treasurer, the Finance Minister is responsible. TNI is an asset of the state. Legally, Justice Minister Hamid Awaluddin will be regulating them.

So far, the TNI businesses have benefited only the generals and not the privates.

Yes, so far profits of this SOE have been going upwards. That is why legal documents are needed. We try to check who was the commanding general there.

Is there resistance from the TNI?

So far it hasn't been open resistance. Perhaps, if there are any, it's because they don't know what the plan is from this inter-departmental team.

Back to the US, what is their reasoning for not lifting the embargo?

In the image war, the TNI has been backed into a corner by the media. The image of the TNI is cruel: repressive and brutal. I try to explain that was the action of a number of units, of a small group of people. It's not fair to judge the entire TNI.

In the US you made a statement on Christian NGOs having to leave Aceh because the majority population are Muslims. What's the story?

At the time I was being asked by the Washington Post and Washington Times reporters. I told them Pak Alwi Shihab (People's Welfare Coordinating Minister) was working on reviewing the number and mandates of each NGO, outside as well as from inside, to prevent chaos.

So, what is the problem with Church-oriented NGOs?

As a province strong in Islam, one must consider local sensitivity with regards to Church-based NGOs. Otherwise, it can become a domestic political problem because the government will be seen as allowing Christianization activities to flourish. I said, besides assistance from the West, we also got help from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. So the religious people who care about Aceh will be better balanced.

The latest issue is that you were being persuaded by the Islam Defenders Front (FPI) to expel Church-based NGOs?

I said that one of the director-generals in the Defense Department is indeed assigned to look after local volunteers in Aceh, including the FPI. I was questioned by the US press whether radical Islamic groups would be allowed into Aceh. I said no. There is a bit of confusion in [the US press] on the name of volunteer groups channeled by the Defense Department and those who came alone.

What did you say about Aceh to Congress?

I told them the helicopters and the floating hospital from the US really provided much help. There is a picture of an American marine saving a mother in an embrace. That picture had incredible impact, uniting two differing cultures.

One is Eastern and Islam, the other is Western and Christian. They were very happy. So, there is some benefit from the tsunami after all. A disaster can project a positive image of the TNI and unite East and West, Indonesia and the US.

Is there a chance the arms embargo will be lifted?

Everything depends on our economic growth.

You mean, even if the embargo were lifted, we actually do not have the money to buy the weapons' spare parts from the US?

Yes. Our budget is very small. I must share it with other departments. But I have spoken to the armed forces commander and the TNI Chief of Staff on the need to revive the system affected by the embargo. When the embargo is lifted we can buy two units of fighter planes every year, so that a full squadron can be achieved in five years' time.

What is the fate of the fighter jets bought from the US?

We bought 12 F-16 fighter jets; two of them have crashed. Only four planes are in a condition to fly. So the other six must be maintained and revived. If the problem is still with the US Congress, we will have to turn to Sukhoi. That's the way it is with the ships too. We will just move to the Netherlands, Korea or Japan.

It seems the Ambalat conflict has been an eye-opener: if war breaks out, we cannot do much?

That's correct. During the six-year crisis people have begun to read about the low readiness capacity of the TNI. That readiness level is 40 percent of the minimum requirement.

How do you see the soldiers today?

I imagine how they would be if we gave them enough wherewithal. But with half a budget, we cannot hope for the ideal. I said, one good soldier is worth a thousand clever man. If one soldier performs well, then one thousand clever people will not be able to pressure him into committing human rights violation. But if he is involved in just one incident, then one thousand people will talk everywhere, from Indonesia to the US Congress, and on to the European parliament.

The Army Chief of Staff said he will increase the number of territorial commands from 12 to 22?

As long as the transition period produces upheavals. There are many problems of poverty which can trigger such upheavals. So these territorial commands are needed to help domestic security problems. Like the experience at Poso and Ambon, the civilians and the police alone are not enough, so that the TNI troops were brought in.

The Defense Department approves the increase in territorial commands?

In principle I agree, although this is not popular among the administration and the NGOs. But I said, you can debate over the issue when the civilian structure is strong. If civilians can overcome such problems, the TNI will surely pass the command over to the civilians.

You are now worried about its excesses?

This is the request from the civilians themselves. It's a case of the chicken and the egg. If the chicken is undeveloped, the egg can't produce a civilian leader that has stature. So the only hope is in the army. Even that on the assumption of calculated presence.

In the context of reducing the TNI's role, how do you see the current TNI leadership? Will the replacement of Army Chief of Staff General Ryamizard Ryacudu-known for his 'militariness'-be enough?

Ryamizard is a nationalist who is proud of his job of protecting the country. He told me, he was not anti-US, but he didn't like American hegemony. I explained that it was not only in Indonesia and in Britain that people didn't like the US. The new Army Chief of Staff, General Joko, is also a nationalist.

What about TNI Commander in Chief, General Endriartono Sutarto?

As he told me, he is a realist. General Sutarto and I agree on pushing the civilians, but the civilians themselves must get their act together. The important thing is not to change the country's fundamentals. It's been proven that General Sutarto was courted by political parties during the 2004 General Elections, but he refused them. This proves he respects civilian supremacy.

Compared to yourself, is General Sutarto more optimistic with regards to civilian supremacy?

He looks more optimistic. He has hopes that supremacy can be achieved, but that it needs patience.

Why do you give the impression of greatly supporting the military?

Look at the most factual proof out of the recent elections: SBY won. I think SBY's election is a message from the people that after the six-year experiment with democracy, we need someone who can bring peace, respect and stability.

Sidebar: Juwono Sudarsono

Place & Date of Birth: Ciamis, West Java, March 5, 1942

Education: Law Faculty & Mass Communications, University of Indonesia, Jakarta (1965) Institute of Social Studies, The Hague, the Netherlands (1969) University of California, Berkeley, USA (MA, 1970) London School of Economics, UK (PhD, 1978) Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA (1985)

Career: Professor, University of Indonesia (1988-to date) Deputy Governor, National Defense Institute (1995-1998) State Minister for the Environment (1997-1998) Education & Culture Minister (May 1998-October 1999) Defense Minister (October 1999-August 2000) Indonesian Ambassador to UK (2003-2004) Defense Minister (2004-to date)