The Bush administration is trying to convince the American Congress to restore some US military assistance to Indonesia. But, it must also win over a number of US Senators who are fiercely opposed to the idea because of Indonesia's human rights record. The advantages for Indonesia in the restoration of assistance are obvious. For the US, among the benefits are a commitment to ongoing co-operation in fighting terror and a continuation of democratic reforms in the world's biggest Muslim nation.

Presenter/Interviewer: Mike Woods

Speakers: Major-General Samsudin, former Indonesian military officer, now Human Rights Commissioner; Professor Sheldon Simon, US military policy analyst, Arizona State University

Woods: At a defence level, things turned sour between the US and Indonesia in 1991, after the Santa Cruz massacre in East Timor. In that bloodbath, 276 people were killed at the hands of the Indonesian army or TNI. They were armed with weapons supplied by the US. Following this, the US Congress put a clamp on military aid to Indonesia and stopped the international military training program IMET.

Former Indonesian military officer and now a Human Rights Commissioner, Major-General Samsudin, says he knows from personal experience the value of the IMET program.

Sudin: Actually I am a student with the US army war college in 1979, and I got a lot of knowledge in this college. I think it's quite important for us and besides that we have historic good relations between America and Indonesia right now.

Woods: With Indonesia's democratic changes, cooperation in fighting terrorism and the welcoming of US troops as part of the international tsunami relief effort, things have changed. But have they changed enough for the US Senate led by Democrat Human Rights campaigner, Senator Patrick Leahy.

US military policy analyst, Professor Sheldon Simon, from Arizona State University.

Simon: I think Senator Leahy and those who are also strongly oriented towards human rights concerns are still going to be a problem. If Senator Leahy can be convinced that the TNI has indeed changed its behaviour with respect to Indonesia's own population, he might relent and I know that the Bush administration has been trying to give him evidence to that effect for some time.

Woods: Many at the US Pentagon, argue that restoration of programs like IMET are a tool to encourage the Indonesian military to respect human rights and civilian control. Former Australian Defence attache and Indonesian military specialist, Bob Lowry, says programs like IMET help to facilitate reform of the military, returning it to the control of the people.

Lowry: They've come to the conclusion, that it's far better to be able to, in a democratic society anyway, to interact with the military and hope that you can influence reform from the inside. Now that wasn't a feasible option really in the Suharto era, but under a democratic regime you would hope that you add to the general community pressure for reform of the military.

Woods: Major-General Samsudin, says he agrees that closer ties between the US and the Indonesian military will help to change attitudes amongst the TNI's ranks.

Sudin: We change now, change behaviour, not like before, where during Suharto when he was president. (President) Susilo must control the army now.

Before, they said military and civilian (have) consensus, but in reality, it's not the military and civilian consensus. Military control the civilians before. We have the Constitution now, and in this Constitution it's very clear it said, that army only have to defend the country, not (be involved with) politics. What the army did before, that's become a problem in our country.

What's the problem? They've stopped the democracy.

Woods: While he says he's optimistic about reform in the Indonesian military, Professor Sheldon Simon warns that the process may be a long one.

Simon: The main goal here is a kind of long-term, liberal influence on the Indonesian armed forces leadership that would take perhaps ten years or more to really have any significant impact on Indonesian military policymaking.

Woods: There have been security problems in Indonesia, as we all know, but it has had its first direct presidential elections and it is cooperating in anti-terrorism programs. Is it possible that the US may want to hold it up as an example of a Muslim country that can changed?

Simon: I think that's absolutely correct. There is a lot of hope for the future of Indonesia's democracy. There's a lot of hope that this could be not only a bellwether for South East Asia which the Bush administration had identified, in my opinion incorrectly, as the second front of Islamist terrorism. So there's a lot of hope being placed on the future of Indonesia and its democratic system.

Woods: But critics say the Indonesian military's human rights record is nothing short of appalling, with over 1800 people killed in the province of Aceh last year alone. It is also battling an independence movement in the province of Papua, where reports of killings and violence continue. While the Bush administration may succeed in getting the green light for the restoration of the IMF program, Indonesia has a long way to go before the US again begins supplying it with lethal, military hardware. Professor Sheldon Simon says before the US Congress would even consider such a move, Jakarta would need to meet one important condition.

Simon: The judicial system demonstrating that it's seriously prepared to prosecute those Indonesian leaders who are involved in perpetrating the violence in East Timor prior to, and during the 1999 elections. That's been a really major issue for the Congress.