[On Indonesia's Independence Day, Sunday 17 August 1997, TEMPO Interaktif met Xanana Gusmao at Cipinang Prison in Jakarta. He is known to his friends as 'Mas Gus', even though he is not from Java. He looks young for his 51 years even though he has now a few grey hairs. 'I keep fit here,' he said. As part of the events to celebrate independence day, he took part in a soccer competition between teams of prisoners, both as coach and player. The team he led won and was given the cup by Justice Minister Oetojo Oesman. Here are extracts from the interview, supplemented by answers given in writing on the next day.]

What is the significance to you of this day?

This shows us that we are entitled to our independence and reminds us to continue to fight until we win independence for East Timor.

Can you explain what you mean by independence for the people of East Timor?

Independence from Indonesian colonialism. We haven't yet succeeded in winning it.

What do you hope for from the Indonesian Government for East Timor?

What I would like is for the Indonesian Government to pursue a correct policy, an open policy. We colonize but we say that we don't colonize. We murder but we say that we don't murder.

Can you explain what you mean?

They went there, took the army there and murdered people but they say that they didn't do any of these things. It's just a huge lie.

Hasn't the Indonesian Government yet done what the people of East Timor want?

There have been no results. We don't need bridges.

What were your feelings when you met President Mandela?

I felt happy that our struggle has his support.

How long did your meeting with Mandela last?

I don't know because I wasn't wearing my watch.

Was it just the two of you? No. There were three of us, because we were accompanied by Lopez da Crux (Indonesia's special ambassador).

In your opinion, is the participation of East Timorese in celebrations for Indonesian independence based on genuine feelings?

Whenever senior officials come from Jakarta, the village head or residential head, or traditional leaders are told to mobilise people to welcome them. The local army and police chiefs threaten the village administrators, ordering them to mobilise the people. If they don't participate, they will be accused of being two-faced and will be placed under scrutiny. Their economic activities will be destroyed.

Would you say that young East Timorese who are accused of humiliating Indonesia abroad should not be described as nationalists?

I don't think their aim is to humiliate the new order abroad. This regime humiliates itself, and sometimes the Indonesian people are also forced to feel ashamed.

They also deceive the Indonesian people and try to convince the world with twisted information. This is very shameful indeed. It's not the East Timorese youths who are putting the Indonesian government to shame.

What is the right way to handle these critical young people?

They only way is for the government to listen to their political aspirations.

What in your opinion will the future bring for East Timor?

We will pursue a good-neighbour policy. We will join ASEAN. But we will never consider entering into any security pacts.

What do you think about the idea of granting special status to East Timor?

There is nothing in the Indonesian Constitution about the special status some people seem to want. They want special status with rather broad powers for the regional administration. They think in terms of a special status that is more than in Aceh and Yogyakarta. But there is nothing about such a thing in the Indonesian Constitution. The people of East Timor are fighting for independence, not for a special status like Aceh or Yogyakarta.

Are you still convinced that the question of East Timor will be resolved by a referendum?

It's not a question of my being convinced. This is a basic matter of principle as provided for in the United Nations, and it must be upheld by everyone. Without a referendum, the question will never be solved.

There are reports that you are going to be released. Yes, I read reports about that in a newspaper, but I dont take too much notice of the issue.