Australia says it's refusing to deal with some officers of Indonesia's notorious Kopassus special forces. The Australian military is applying the veto to officers accused of human rights violations while still trying to rebuild links with Kopassus. The Defence Minister says it's a difficult balancing act but in Australia's national interest.

Presenter/Interviewer: Graeme Dobell

Speakers: Senator Robert Hill, Australia's Defence Minister; Ross Cottrill, head of the Australian Institute of International Affairs and a former top defence official

Dobell: Australian special forces troops last trained with the Indonesian red berets in 1997. The training link was cut as violence mounted in East Timor. And Kopassus has since been implicated in other shady actions, including the murder of two Americans and an Indonesian working at the Freeport mine in Papua.

But as part of its anti-terrorism policy, Australia is building up cooperation with Special Forces in Southeast Asia, already conducting joint exercises with the Philippines and Thailand.

And Defence Minister, Robert Hill, says it's in Australia's national interest to resume military cooperation with Kopassus. Hill: We have sought to re-engage Kopassus because we regard it as the principle counter terrorism capability within Indonesia. There are other capabilities that are developing, particularly within the police and we're supporting that as well. But if a very serious incident, such as a hijacking, it may well be more likely then not Kopassus that is brought in.

Dobell: Along with that re-engagement, Australia is also blackballing some of the 5000 officers and men who make up Kopassus becuase of human rights violations.

Senator Hill.

Hill: We have said that we cannot work with those who have committed crimes in the past. This has not made it easy to develop that relationship but we're trying to achieve a win-win situation here. The first that we can work with this organisation where it's necessary to protect Australian lives, but secondly not to send a message that might be confused in relation to basic adherence to basic human values. We haven't proceeded far yet other then through exchanges of senior personnel, meetings between leaders, commanders of the organisations and we are continuing to work down that path and to identify those that we can work with and to gain the confidence of Indonesia in respecting the restrictions that we need to impose.

Dobell: It's an extraordinary military balancing act, seeking cooperation with Indonesia's elite special forces, but also identifying key officers who won't be welcome on joint exercises with Australia. A former top Defence official in Canberra, Ross Cottrill, now head of the Australian Institute of International Affairs, gives this description of how the individual ban would be applied.

Cottrill: "Well one way is to start with designing the exercise that Kopasseus's elements would be involved with, in such a way that it is more appropriate for some parts of Kopassus and less appropriate for others to be involved."

"For example, you could design it so that it was focussed on kind of terrorist capabilities perhaps a hijack of an aircraft or something of that sort and then it would be natural for both sides to select their most suitable forces for that and there could be consultation about how those sources are selected."

Dobell: If Australia has already told Indonesia that some Kopassus officers are not acceptable, how does that impact on the efforts to rebuild the military relationship?

Cottrill: "Any country would be really reluctant to have an exercise partner or a security partner blackballing effectively individual officers, particularly if their senior and thought to have a future. It is much easier to deal with it in functional terms rather than in terms of personalities."

Dobell: Why then is Australia going through the political difficulties of dealing with this organisation which has such a black reputation? Why is it continuing to try to deal with Kopassus when there is that barrier?

Cottrill: "It's a question of bundling. It's because the kind of terrorist capabilities that are of most relevance to co-operation with countries like Australia reside in Kopassus along with capabilities for dealing with urban insurrection or unrest domestically and those things are grouped together and of course we want to be able to co-operate on counter terrorist measures, but we do not really want to be involved with elements with the Indonesian armed forces, it might have an unsavoury record."