Presenter/Interviewer: Sen Lam

Speakers: UNHCR spokesman Jake Morland

Morland: The UNHCR believes that there are now less than 50-thousand refugees remaining in Indonesia, not just in West Timor. Of these we still do expect to return perhaps some 35-thousand refugees, however we're unsure at this stage whether that is the number that Joao Tavares actually controls.

Lam: He says that he will return only if he and his followers can be accommodated in one place. Is that realistic?

Morland: I don't think so, that idea was raised at the last meeting on June 14. The East Timorese delegation then said they wanted to go back to their government to discuss this. They've come to the meeting today and said that they were not keen on the idea and the West Timorese delegation led by Joao Tavares is now going back to the camps to socialise the East Timorese proposal that people go directly back to their communities just as any refugee would on a UNHCR facilitated return.

Lam: And how did Tavares respond to President Xanana Gusmao's statement that returning militias will have to stand trial even though he's promised to seek pardons for them?

Morland: The issue of amnesty was raised albeit very briefly, they are aware that if they return they will have to go through the judicial process. UNHCR sees the judicial process as part of the reconciliation process and therefore an essential as reconciliation itself.

Lam: So are we any closer to some form of resolution, is it clearer to you now what's going to happen with the returnees?

Morland: I'd say that we are closer today than we have been for many months. We're continuing to see large numbers of refugees crossing the border, this year alone we've had nearly 20,000 people return to their homes in East Timor. At the current rate if they keep coming across at this rate we will see the vast majority of the remaining refugees return before the end of the year. This is UNHCR's target, at the end of the year refugees lose their refugee status as decided by the High Commissioner during his visit here last month.

Lam: So if the returnees are already filtering back what was the point of having this meeting to begin with? I mean what are we trying to get Tavares to agree to?

Morland: Well I think it's clear that the process of reconciliation, which is necessary if the refugee return is to be a durable solution, we must foster this dialogue at an early stage, we must facilitate reconciliation before repatriation even occurs. That way we can feel more secure in that these refugees will be able to reintegrate more safely into their communities rather than facing problems upon return.

Lam: Indeed it's one thing for President Gusmao to call for reconciliation but how confident are you that the returnees, many of whom have been accused of committing atrocities, how confident are you that they will not be targetted for revenge attacks?

Morland: Well I agree that this is our main concern that they might be targetted in some way upon return. But to date with over 212,000 refugees having returned, we're relatively confident that as long as this process of reconciliation and this dialogue is continued, that we won't face too many problems in the coming months.

Lam: So to your knowledge are there many East Timorese civilians still being held against their will by the militias in West Timor?

Morland: We do still receive reports although nowhere near on the same scale as in this past that there are certain camps where refugees are being intimidated and misinformed in an attempt to prevent them from returning. That is again why this process of reconciliation is so important.