Keith Richburg, Jakarta – Juwono Sudarsono, a soft-spoken academic who has become Indonesia's new civilian defense minister, has acknowledged in an interview that the process of getting the army out of politics will be a gradual one and that the extent of his control over the military is not yet clear.

"I'm just the beginning of an eventual form of civilian control," Mr. Juwono said Wednesday, speaking candidly and at length about the complex power relationship between the government and the military. "It will take a few months, or years."

Five weeks ago, the choice of Mr. Juwono was heralded as a political eclipse for the powerful military as the country entered a new democratic era.

Indonesians had just chosen a popular new president, Abdurrahman Wahid, known as "Gus Dur," who, in spite of his physical frailty, began immediately to assert his authority with vigor. The armed forces commander, General Wiranto, was sidelined to a cabinet job, supposedly with little real power.

Mr. Juwono, as the first civilian defense chief in decades, was the most obvious sign of a break from the past and the beginning of civilian supremacy over the armed forces.

But for those who want to see a more immediate assertion of civilian control over the troops, he said simply, "Things are not as easy as they look."

One complicating factor is the continued dominance in the power game of General Wiranto, who has managed to survive Indonesia's transition to democracy – and the loss of his job as armed forces commander – with most of his power intact, even enhanced.

His new job, coordinating minister for political affairs and security, had previously been mainly a figurehead position with no real power. But the general has turned the job into something making him virtually a powerful chief of staff to the nearly blind Mr. Wahid.

In cabinet meetings, General Wiranto sits just to Mr. Wahid's right, chairing the sessions and deciding the agenda, Mr. Juwono said. He lays out the policy options. "Wiranto on occasion becomes effectively the president and the vice president at the same time," Mr. Juwono said. "It's a powerful role." Mr. Juwono said the meetings tended to be "rather structured, because there are limits to what Gus Dur can remember."

Mr. Juwono said Mr. Wiranto's new role had become even more important, given the president's impaired vision, which made it impossible for him to read documents. "At the moment, we are worried that his only source of information is what is whispered in his ear," Mr. Juwono said.

General Wiranto played a crucial role from the beginning, being one of five people who helped draw up the current cabinet – the others being Vice President Megawati Sukarnoputri; the Golkar party chairman, Akbar Tandjung; the speaker of the People's Consultative Assembly, Amien Rais, and Mr. Wahid. All of the other four recognized that General Wiranto "was a force to be reckoned with," Mr. Juwono said.

Mr. Juwono calls it "a paradox" that Mr. Wiranto's power has increased in the new democratic era, precisely as the military's record of abuse – and General Wiranto's own stewardship of it – has come under intense scrutiny from human rights investigators.

Mr. Wiranto made a power play early on, signing off on a new military promotion list while Mr. Wahid was out of the country, and without first clearing it through Mr. Juwono.

Another measure of General Wiranto's new clout is that he has moved into his new cabinet position as coordinating minister without first resigning from the active duty military. That leaves General Wiranto in a more powerful position within the armed forces, even though there is now a new commander, Admiral A.S. Widodo.

Mr. Juwono said that the refusal of General Wiranto and others to retire from the service was evidence of their continued clout in the new government.

Mr. Juwono said that for the immediate future, Indonesia's armed forces are unlikely to follow their counterparts in other parts of the region – notably Thailand, South Korea, the Philippines and Taiwan.

There, democratic transitions have seen the soldiers pull back from politics in favor of more traditional military roles, like fighting insurgents and joining international peacekeeping efforts.

In Indonesia, civil society – that network of independent unions, grass-roots organizations, trade associations, the media – is not yet strong enough, meaning the armed forces will continue to play a dominant role, Mr. Juwono said.

"We also lack the tradition of a modern and efficient civil service and a political party tradition," Mr. Juwono said. "We don't have that here.

We're just beginning." He added, "Even with a civilian defense minister, the army is still the most effective political force in the country."