"Not one cent abroad"

Holed up in the family compound in Jakarta, Suharto declined repeated requests for an interview about his holdings. But Hong Kong bureau chief John Colmey met separately with two of the former President's lawyers, Otto Cornelis Kaligis, head of Suharto's eight-member legal team, and Juan Felix Tampubolon. Excerpts from the interviews:

Time: There is evidence that $9 billion was transferred from Switzerland to Austria under President Suharto's name.

Kaligis: When I asked President Suharto about this, he told me: "I don't have one cent abroad." And he gave absolute power of attorney to the Attorney General to investigate. If he finds any evidence, Mr. Suharto is ready to be brought to court. Therefore, I do not believe it is true.

Time: Has Suharto accumulated billions of dollars in hidden wealth?

Tampubolon: There is no legally admissible evidence to say he has accumulated billions. The AG's office has identified his bank accounts: the amount is $2.4 million. Seven foundations chaired by him received funds amounting to $547 million. These foundations, as well as their assets, have been transferred to the government.

Time: It is seems unlikely those foundations could collect only $547 million over 19 years, given their revenues. In 1990, for example, they had a controlling share in Bank Duta, with assets of $1 billion.

Kaligis: I don't have every detail about them, but the money of the foundations was used to build mosques and churches, to fund student scholarships, and for social activities.

Time: The AG's office says more than half the money was lent to Suharto's children and friends, who rarely repaid any of it.

Kaligis: In my experience accompanying the President to the examination by the AG, all the evidence was delivered to him. So far his investigations of Mr. Suharto have never touched the children. Time: Should Suharto be held responsible for any crimes of the children?

Kaligis: The law says no.

Time: Do you think Suharto was aware of the greed of his children? Kaligis: He concentrated on the government. The children as citizens have the right to carry on business, and it has nothing to do with policies of President Suharto.

Time: Will Suharto ever stand trial?

Tampubolon: In my opinion he will never have to. For every crime he committed, if any, before 1981, the right to prosecute has expired under the statutory period limitation. For any crime committed within 1981-1998, if any, the right to prosecute has been abolished by the decrees of the People's Consultative Assembly, which accepted Mr. Suharto's reports on how he carried out the assembly's mandate.

Time: Isn't it ironic that many Suharto critics were once his biggest supporters?

Tampubolon: Of course it is ironic that many who used to support Mr. Suharto now consider him as the only culprit of every error committed in the past.

Doesn't that mean that they're criticizing themselves?

Time: Does Suharto continue to influence the military?

Kaligis: When I asked if he is still involved with political life, he said there are "no activities at all." What he is doing now is praying and facing his old age. He knows he is going to die, and as a Muslim he prepares himself for that.

"It's very hard"

Having declined repeated requests over several months for an interview, Indonesian Attorney General Andi Muhammad Ghalib finally met with correspondent David Liebhold and reporter Jason Tedjasukmana. Ghalib, who conceded that President Habibie had instructed him to grant the interview, initially referred questions to members of his staff. When pressed, however, he provided a few answers himself.

A longer version of this interview will be posted shortly Time: In investigating former President Suharto's social foundations, have you found that some of their funds went to the wrong places?

Ghalib: Yes. Some of the money was not used for social prosperity or social purposes.

Time: And that's not enough to charge him?

Ghalib: There's a problem, because to make the charge of corruption, we have to prove that money came from the state and is not private.

Time: On the basis of your investigation so far, do you suspect that Suharto has broken the law in any respect?

Ghalib: Yes, we suspect.

Time: Why haven't you asked foreign governments to freeze any assets that he may have overseas?

Ghalib: It's very hard, you know, without any proof, without any evidence. I sent a letter to the foreign affairs minister [Ali Alatas] to find out whether there is [money] abroad, in a bank, maybe some land, houses and so on. The minister has found that there is nothing in the name of Suharto.

Time: People say, "Ghalib is a military man, a three-star general." Ghalib: Suharto is five-star. [Laughs]

Time: As a soldier and a three-star general, would it be difficult for you to press charges against your former commander?

Ghalib: No, no, no. Because I'm now not under Suharto. I'm under Habibie. It depends on the President. If the President instructs me, whatever I do, no problem.

Time: Why aren't you investigating allegations of corruption in relation to the National Logistics Agency or the state oil company Pertamina?

Ghalib: Maybe the reason is, if we want to investigate all of them, because he was the President, so, of course, many of them are connected, including us.

Time: Your audit of Suharto's seven main social foundations disclosed that they have accumulated 5.4 trillion rupiah ($690 million). Isn't the real figure much higher than that?

Ghalib: Your estimate is the same as mine. There may be more, but how could we find it? We are not experts. Maybe you have experts? Can you give me experts?

Time: What was Suharto's presidential salary?

Ghalib: I don't know exactly, because I never asked.

Time: You've been investigating Suharto since December on suspicion of corruption, but you don't know what his monthly salary was? Is this a serious investigation?

Ghalib: Very serious, you know, very serious, but this is just preliminary.