[Andre Vltcheck interviewed Mari Alkatiri on September 13, in the Sultan Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia. Alkatiri was the first prime minister of East Timor, serving from May 2002 until June 26, 2006.]
Q: What is the relationship status between Indonesia and East Timor right now?
A: The relationships are very good, although we still have some pending, minor issues that have to be resolved, such as assets and the land border. We hope that by the end of this year these issues can be resolved. And of course we have the Commission of Truth and Friendship working and we are waiting for the report on its findings.
Q: How much do you really expect from the Commission of Truth and Friendship?
A: I am already out of power and out of the government, so I can't really tell too much. But I think that if some truth comes from their work, it will be very important. Both nations need to know the truth. I also believe that the process of democratization in both countries will eventually bring solutions to the existent problems.
Q: But can some conclusion be reached given the fact that the people of Indonesia do not know what their own government and military did during the occupation?
A: That's exactly the point. Solutions will be possible only if both sides are informed about what really occurred. The path to the solution is the truth. People have to socialize; they have to understand. I think this is the main target. If achieved, then our two countries could start afresh. Whether to seek justice or to offer amnesty, that's up to the Commission to decide. In the meantime, both governments have to deal with this issue very carefully, in order to strengthen the friendship and not jeopardize everything.
Q: But we are not talking just about human rights violations; we are talking about genocide. One third of the population of a small nation either disappeared or died as a consequence of the occupation...
A: We still have the Commission working on the issue of the disappearances. As recently as last week I had a meeting with the Red Cross, and of course they are also working on this matter of the disappeared... This issue has to be cleared; there are still families whose members are missing. Their beloved fathers and mothers and other family members... But these things take time.
Q: How receptive is Indonesian military and government, and even the public? How receptive they are to take responsibility for the decades of occupation and its consequences?
A: I think this question has to be addressed to them. But I feel that they are moving in the right direction.
Q: When you meet members of Indonesian public do they know what happened in your country? Do they realize the scale of what occurred?
A: I don't think so... I don't think so. The general public does not realize the scale. And they definitely need to know.
Q: When you meet government officials here, and the next morning you read the local newspapers, do you feel that the issue is given objective and detailed coverage?
A: It is not easy for the officials here to deal with this issue, because Indonesia is still in a short transition time from one regime to another... and they need to deal with these kinds of issues very carefully. We have to understand this.
Q: Do you see some similarities between what happened in your country and what is happening now in Papua?
A: Yes, there is some resistance now in Papua. All of us know it very well. Aceh is over, but Papua is still facing the problems.
Q: Coming back to Timor Leste, where does your country belong to right now? You are negotiating with the Pacific Forum, you are improving your ties with Indonesia, and your relationship is strained with Australia...
A: This is the dilemma of a small country. We are in between two regional blocks and we really have to weigh our options. We applied to be a member of ASEAN [Association of Southeast Asian Nations], we are already members of ARF [ASEAN Regional Forum], but we are also benefiting from the status of observer at Pacific Forum. Unfortunately we can't be members of both. Yes, unfortunately; otherwise it would be easier for us. We feel divided. We would still like to cooperate with Pacific Forum, while being members of ASEAN. Maybe, one day, things will change and we will be allowed to be members of both.
Q: What is your relationship with Australia right now?
A: What I did when I was a prime minister was to defend the interests of my people. I did nothing against Australia. But some people interpreted defending the interests of my people as going against Australia. I was never against Australia, but I was elected a prime minister of Timor Leste and I had to deal with extremely complicated issues related to the resources vital to my country – resources under the Timor Sea. I did my best to get as much as I could for my people. It's not a crime.
Q: There was a lot of arm-twisting on the part of Australia. In the end, a compromise was reached between the two countries. Are you satisfied with the conclusion?
A: Australia made a big effort to come to agreement with us. We are still not satisfied, because we think that 100% of the wealth should belong to us. But it's better to have 50% than nothing. This is the point.
Q: Did you ever feel that your country had almost no chance against such a mighty nation as Australia? Your country went to several international courts and bodies, seeking arbitration. Australia simply withdrew from the International Court of Justice's jurisdiction on the maritime boundary.
A: Let's be realistic. This is how the world functions. But you have to struggle, and attempt to do the best for your people. Sometimes when you do it, you create enemies. But you have to be courageous. I believe that if we had gotten into the court, we would definitely have won. I am a lawyer myself and had been consulting people from many countries. I was confident. But since Australia decided to withdraw from the court – the international court is not like some domestic court – you can't really appeal to the court if the other country doesn't accept its jurisdiction. Such situations are always in favor of the big powers, never of the small countries. They can only struggle, until the point when they realize that they are getting as much as there is to get under the present rules... and then they have to accept it.
Q: Internally, there is still a lot of disappointment and a lot of bitterness regarding developments in the country on the part of many FRETILIN members [Revolutionary Front for an Independent East Timor]. But where does FRETILIN stand now, what is its position in Timor Leste?
A: We still won the recent elections. We had five years of very difficult governance, because the situation we inherited was very complex. We had to start from zero, but some people didn't understand that we had no state, no institutions. Of course we had the Constitution and government – an elected President and Parliament – but the state as an institution – no. We had to build everything from nothing, including the legal framework. Without having a real state, you cannot develop coherent socio-economic politics. This is the point. But it is very difficult to explain it to the people who have very high expectations from the moment of independence. To summarize, FRETILIN provided the country with extremely high expectations but we could not satisfy those expectations in a very short time. People fought for 24 years to get their independence. After they won it, it was impossible to achieve everything overnight. We had to build the nation and the state simultaneously.
Q: In your opinion, how successful was the process of building the nation and the state? Was it, after all, a success, given that it took place in such a short time?
A: Even with the crises of 2006, it was a success. Many things were done. We achieved very solid macro-economic and fiscal management. We created a legal framework and we gave the country functioning institutions. Everything was done based on the rule of law. And you cannot do this overnight. I still believe that in four years we achieved more than many other countries did in 10 to 20 years, especially when it comes to the efforts of state building. We inherited the country with absolutely no money. No a single penny belonged to us and at the beginning we had to work only with donor's money. Thanks to successful negotiations with Australia we have now our own budget. And suddenly it is easy to promise things to the people. But in 2002 until 2005 it was still impossible to make any realistic promise.
Q: With the revenues from oil and gas, how dramatic will the changes be in Timor Leste?
A: If the revenues are well managed, the entire social and economic situation will change dramatically. Now we are really able to respond to the needs of ex-combatants. They can receive a house, some pension. We are in the position to deliver.
Q: FRETELIN is historically a left-wing movement. When I discussed this issue with Xanana Gusmao few years ago, he was already moving away from the ideas of Marxism. But to what extent is FRETILIN still a left-wing, socialist force?
A: FRETILIN has never been a Marxist movement. As a movement and as a front, it tried to include everybody. And if you include everybody, you cannot be ideological. Secondly, who in 1981 declared FRETILIN to be a Marxist-Leninist party? It was Xanana himself.
Q: But then he denied it...
A: Exactly. Soon he realized that he made a mistake. Then he tried to change everything, just to show to the people that he was no longer a Marxist. Despite everything, the present-day FRETILIN is a full member of Socialist International.
Q: What does it mean practically, in Timor Leste?
A: Practically FRETILIN, as any other party that wins elections, has to tackle real problems – poverty, and the need for better education and healthcare. Our Constitution promises free education and free healthcare. But the main issue is to eradicate poverty in the country. You cannot survive as a government if you cannot progress on these issues. Today, in Dili, they are discussing plans for the new government and it is already obvious that it will be nothing else than a clear copy of the plans implemented by my government earlier. They keep saying that they will change this and that, but in reality there will be no major changes, just continuity. The only difference is that they can now promise more then us, because they have funds.
Q: Where is it all going to lead?
A: We had already started to implement new policies in 2005 and 2006. We paid more attention to community development, ex-combatants, veterans, widows and orphans. As soon as oil revenues began to arrive, we increased the budget twice and now three times. And we started with the programs dealing with rural development. We also began the process of decentralization, with pilot projects in four districts.
Q: Education remains the main challenge.
A: From our population of about 1 million, at least 300,000 children and adults have to go to school, every day. It means that we need at least 6,000 to 7,000 qualified teachers. We got 300 teachers from Portugal and we are trying to get many from Indonesia. One problem we have is the language. Many people still don't speak Portuguese well, while their Bahasa Indonesia is degenerating.
Q: Despite all the problems your country is facing, do you remain optimistic?
A: Yes, definitely. Our entire country passed through very difficult period. All of us should learn lessons from the crises and try to resolve them politically. On the international level, we are squeezed between two giants – Indonesia and Australia. We need to have good relationships with both. But with Indonesia it is not an option – it is a must.
[Mari Bim Amude Alkatiri is the secretary-general of FRETILIN.]