In this episode of The Editors, we discuss the commission of truth and friendship set up after Indonesia's occupation of East Timor and deaths of up to 200,000 people. Grace Phan speaks to Indonesia's Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayuda, and human rights lawyer, Adirito de Jesus Soares. Our panellists include Bambang Harymurti, Editor-in-Chief, Tempo Magazine, Sonny Inbaraj, Bureau Chief for Interpress Services in Bangkok and video journalist, Max Stahl.

Grace Phan: Hello I'm Grace Phan in Singapore, welcome to The Editors. Tonight, Human Rights Abuses, Justice and Reconciliation, sorting out the legacy of Indonesia's occupation of East Timor.

Max Stahl, Video Journalist: These elements of Indonesian army and society are well known to the Timorese, and the Timorese understand them as enemies of peace and as dangerous neighbours.

Sonny Inbaraj, Bureau Chief, Interpress Services: I think the Timorese leadership have made it clear that they do not want any international involvement in this Commission for Truth and Friendship, and that's indeed sad.

Bambang Harymurti, Editor-in-Chief, Tempo Magazine: People like me, Indonesian, we also want to have these bad people to be tried and put in jail.

Grace Phan: Our commentators later, but first there is no doubt that a quarter of a century of Indonesian rule brought a lot of misery to the people of East Timor. From the Indonesian invasion in 1975 until its withdrawal in 1999, an estimated 200,000 East Timorese lost their lives, many at the hands of the Indonesian military or pro-Indonesia militia.

Since then, special courts and commissions in Dili and Jakarta have been set up but they've convicted mostly only low ranking offenders, while indicted senior Indonesian military officers remain free. East Timor and Indonesia have agreed to a so-called Commission of Truth and Friendship, ostensibly to shed light on the abuses associated with Indonesia's withdrawal from East Timor in 1999.

At the time pro-Indonesia militia gangs went on a rampage killing 1,400 people and laying waste vast areas of territory and forcibly deporting a quarter of a million people across the border into West Timor. But the Commission of Truth and Friendship too is accused of being toothless with power to grant amnesty but not prosecute.

Before we debate the commission's bona fides some opinion from the media.

Signing the new accord Indonesia's President, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, was quoted as calling the new 10-man commission, "the best and most feasible means to come to terms with and move away from bloodshed". East Timor's President, Xanana Gusmao, described the commission's role as a "mammoth task to seek truth not retribution". Fine words but not universally accepted. The 'Asian Wall Street Journal' was dismissive, it said, "Jakarta set up a joint panel with East Timor to investigate 1999 crimes, but it was accused of circumventing any UN [United Nations] probe". Some Indonesian newspapers were also wary, "Indonesia, East Timor seal deal on past atrocities", said a cool 'Jakarta Post'. But it noted, "observers have expressed scepticism about the joint commission arguing that it is merely a ploy by Indonesia to whitewash any human rights violators and escape justice. The UN remains not yet convinced by the move".

Indonesian's news agency, 'Antara' under the heading, "RI, the Republic of Indonesia, East Timor signed declaration to form Truth Friendship Commission", appeared confused about the commission's purpose. It said, "it remained unclear whether the commission's task would also cover resettlement of the 1999 human rights cases in East Timor, which Indonesia had already settled through the trial and conviction of a number of Indonesian military and police officials".

Commentary in the 'Catholic World News' under the heading, "Truth and Justice Commission on East Timor will lack prosecuting power", quoted Bishop Alberto Ricardo da Silva of Dili saying the "country's people do not support the commission". It concluded, "critics argue that without the power to prosecute the commission offers no hope of bringing rights violators to justice".

After the break we'll canvass a variety of views on the recently announced Truth and Friendship Commission to be set up jointly by East Timor and Indonesia. Is it the road to reconciliation or is it a sham? Back in a moment.

Grace Phan: Welcome back. On The Editors tonight, human rights abuses in East Timor. Is the Truth and Friendship Commission recently announced by Indonesia and East Timor the solution or a whitewash? For the pro-commission view I spoke recently with the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayuda.

Hassan Wirayuda, Indonesian Foreign Minister: We thought that sovereign governments, Indonesia and Timor-Leste have the rights to establish mechanisms that we thought were able to close this chapter of the past, to bring the closure of these problems in order for us to move forward.

Even on the very names, truth and friendship, somewhat unusual because normally truth and reconciliation. But it was the East Timor, the Timor-Leste side propose that rather than to call it a commission of truth and reconciliation, rather call it truth and friendship commission with arguments that to them reconciliation has taken place in the past three years. Grace Phan: Of course the question still is once you get the truth what are you going to do with it? Is impunity part of the deal?

Hassan Wirayuda: We're not here, there are only two approaches. One is the justice approach, and second one is truth and reconciliation, and consequently when we opted for truth and reconciliation the truth that we find will not lead to the prosecutions. That's why lead to reconciliation rather than prosecutions. So that's why we're not talking here about impunity, because by its very definition truth and reconciliation would not lead to prosecutions.

Grace Phan: That was the Indonesian Foreign Minister, Hassan Wirayuda.

The United Nations has refused to endorse the Truth and Friendship Commission. So have several human rights groups. In an article in the 'Jakarta Post' headed, "East Timor, justice for whom?" human rights lawyer, Adirito de Jesus Soares wrote, "This commission would pave the way for the perpetrators to keep enjoying their impunity. In contrast in the eyes of the victims, an international tribunal would put an end to the impunity enjoyed by those who committed human rights violations both in East Timor and Indonesia".

I spoke to Mr Soares earlier from Dili. Mr Soares how would you describe the Truth and Friendship Commission?

Adirito de Jesus Soares, human rights lawyer: Well, I think from human rights perspective I think it is completely false since I doubt that this commission can do any justice for victims. In general I think this commission will not guarantee anything for victims in East Timor, those who suffered from this 1999 referendum.

Grace Phan: Do most East Timorese share that point of view?

Adirito de Jesus Soares: I think from the victims' perspective, you know, in East Timor there are a lot of victims groups and I think they are coming with very strong voice to have justice, and I think at this stage victims in East Timor are still really unsatisfied with the whole process whether in East Timor or in Dili itself with the special panel for East Timor.

Grace Phan: What do the victims want?

Adirito de Jesus Soares: I think that's the demand of victims here to have justice, and as we follow that whole process here our special panel in Dili of course convicted some of the low fishes that were involved in the human rights violations in 1999, while the whole big fish are still walking freely. And I think from the victims' perspective I think that's the demand that you know people keep demanding for justice. I think we're kind of consistent with the whole UN recognition that back in 1999 that if the national system is unwilling or unable to prosecute the perpetrators, then we should think about the alternative. And I think that's really the strong voice of victims in East Timor, and of course lately you heard our leadership are talking about this Truth and Friendship Commission, but again as I say from human rights perspective this is really a complete farce.

Grace Phan: The Indonesian Foreign Minister, Mr Hassan Wirayuda said truth and reconciliation was successful in South Africa, and it's true that many saw this as a valuable part of the healing process there?

Adirito de Jesus Soares: Well exactly I mean here in East Timor we also have truth and reconciliation commission. We just set up three years ago, but as I said most of the perpetrators that committed human rights violations in East Timor are not here anymore. The commission also can only deal with all these small fishes and they have no power, the commission has no power to deal with serious crimes, dealing with crimes against humanity. I think this is clear from human rights perspective, from international law perspective that once you deal about crimes against humanity that should be brought to justice, not talk about impunity. And I do really, I'm really afraid that this Truth and Friendship Commission that Indonesian government and East Timor government are establishing is going to grant amnesty for those perpetrators. And I think this really is a setback in terms of fighting to stop impunity around the world.

Grace Phan: Hassan Wirayuda said the Truth and Friendship Commission was a mechanism to "close a chapter of the past to enable us to move forward". Do you think that is a reasonable objective?

Adirito de Jesus Soares: I think it's really ridiculous talking to close the past human rights violations which has involved such serious crimes such as crimes against humanity, crimes in genocide. And this is a problem that the world is dealing with and suddenly we see these two countries are thinking to close this past human rights violations. And I think against from human rights perspective I think it's really difficult to see this Truth and Friendship Commission can get information from military generals in Indonesia, I really doubt that Indonesian military generals are going to give information to this Truth and Friendship Commission.

Grace Phan: But even your own president, Xanana Gusmao said, "we are not looking for defendants, we are looking for truth". Do you not see any virtue in that?

Adirito de Jesus Soares: It is a contradiction in terminology, if you talk about truth, if you talk about justice, these are two things that should go hand in hand. We can't say that we are opposing justice while we're neglecting truth, or we are looking for truth while we are neglecting justice. I mean this is really an argument for me really doesn't make sense, and I think really if you talk about justice then we should talk about victims. And I don't see any single word, any agenda in the Truth and Friendship Commission that deals with victims.

Grace Phan: Mr Soares thank you very much. That was human rights lawyer, Adirito de Jesus Soares, speaking to me earlier from Dili. The Editor's panel is coming up right after this break.

Grace Phan: Welcome back, tonight we're examining the recently announced Truth and Friendship Commission set up in the wake of human rights abuses at the time of the Indonesian withdrawal from East Timor five years ago.

The governments of East Timor and Indonesia see the commission as a way of cementing good relations between the two countries. Others though are critical of the commission's lack of judicial power.

So on to our panel now, from Jakarta, Bambang Harymurti, Editor-in-Chief of 'Tempo Magazine'. From Dili, video journalist, Max Stahl, who witnessed much of the violence in East Timor, and from Bangkok, Sonny Inbaraj, Bureau Chief of 'Interpress Services' and former media advisor to East Timor's Foreign Minister, Ramos Horta. Gentlemen welcome to you all.

Sonny Inbaraj, you just heard criticism of the Truth and Friendship Commission, the commission has also been criticised by no lesser organisations than the United Nations and the Roman Catholic Church. Is the criticism justified?

Sonny Inbaraj, Bureau Chief, Interpress Services: I think Grace the criticism is justified in the sense that the setting up of this commission for truth and friendship does not involve any processes set out to prosecute the perpetrators of the 1999 violence. There are no mechanisms for that. There are mechanisms for the granting of amnesty to these people provided they cooperate with the Commission for Truth and Friendship. I think the Timorese leadership have made it clear that they do not want any international involvement in this Commission for Truth and Friendship, and that's indeed sad, because the 1991 international intervention of East Timor was done on the basis that there were grave human rights abuses happening in the country.

Grace Phan: Max Stahl you live in Dili, you videoed the massacre at the Santa Cruz cemetery in East Timor in 1991 when Indonesian soldiers gunned down 271 Timorese and other violence just before Indonesia's withdrawal. In view of those events what is the feeling on the ground in Timor about the resolution of past crimes?

Max Stahl, Video Journalist: There is a strong feeling in Timor I think across the board, even including victims that East Timor's relations with Indonesia are important, that people in Timor want to be friends with Indonesian people. There is not much sense here of desire for revenge.

People in Timor actually like Indonesians generally, they get on well with them, they understand them well, they feel as though they've got to know them in the period that they were here. However they make a distinction between Indonesians and Indonesian people and the army, and particularly some elements of the army such as the intelligence services, Kopassus and others. These units, these elements of Indonesian army in society are well known to the Timorese, and the Timorese understand them as enemies of peace and as dangerous neighbours. They don't trust them and they would love to see them taken out of the game. But that's not very easy and most Timorese are very realistic I find, they had to be realistic over many years in which they were in a very weak position. They had to choose their battles and they could not afford to indulge in taking on battles they couldn't win. Some Timorese feel that this is a battle they cannot win.

Grace Phan: Bambang Harymurti is there not an argument that Indonesia and East Timor have to live side by side and this commission is one way to assist that?

Bambang Harymurti, Editor-in-Chief, Tempo Magazine: Yeah I think it's the intention of this commission from both sides to maintain good relations between two countries, because we live side by side, so we need to live in peace. But also I understand also that the victims of repression by some bad elements in the military or intelligence communities are not only East Timorese but also Indonesians. So people like me, Indonesian, we also want to have these bad people to be tried and put in jail.

Sonny Inbaraj: If the judicial process in East Timor is not addressed it will go down very badly for Indonesia in the sense that all those military commanders who have been associated during the Suharto era would be able to go scott free in Indonesia, there's still a lot of atrocities in Indonesia that are being swept under the carpet. What about Aceh? What about West Papua? So the judicial process in East Timor I reckon will be a test case for Indonesia.

Grace Phan: Why do you think President Xanana Gusmao is so persistent in extending the hand of friendship to Indonesia when Indonesia was central to so much pain to him personally and his countrymen and women?

Sonny Inbaraj: I think first of all Xanana is a very forgiving man, but one thing that I want to bring up Grace is that first in any traumatised society coming out of a post-conflict situation there needs to be an opportunity for people to cry, for people to cry out, to tell others what they've been through. And after it all comes out then there's this whole justice issue that can be brought upon.

Max Stahl: I can well see why the government of East Timor has gone with this and I can see why the Indonesian government has gone with it, from a political point of view the East Timorese government has watched the international community backsliding and basically one way or another not delivering on its commitments, delaying on them and then attempting to put the ball in the court of the East Timorese. I'm not able to tell you what the private thoughts of President Xanana or Foreign Minister Horta or the Prime Minister here have been throughout this process, but I can say that I have noticed they have changed slowly, and they have changed because they notice in my judgement that the international community had no serious intention of delivering on justice and on the promises that they made. And that East Timor was in great danger of being the victims again as a result of being asked to attack Indonesia for whom it absolutely had to have good relations in order to survive and develop, and being asked to be the as it were the little kid in the playground go and spit in the eye of the big guy.

Grace Phan: Bambang Harymurti, Adirito de Jesus Soares wrote in the 'Jakarta Post' in February, "this commission would pave the way for the perpetrators to keep enjoying their impunity". Do you agree?

Bambang Harymurti: It is a bit too premature to say that but on the other hand I think it's good that he wrote that article as a sort of post to make sure that we will have the good people to be chosen as a member of the commission and that this commission will really work hard and work diligently to make sure that the truth will come out.

Grace Phan: Can the United Nations be more successful in prosecuting the perpetrators?

Bambang Harymurti: I think it depends on their approach. If their approach is helping to strengthen the Indonesian civil society who also abhor these perpetrators of human rights abuses, I think it can be fairly successful. But if the approach is a whole new approach to the whole Indonesian society, I think it will have, it will be a failure.

Grace Phan: Let me ask all of you will the commission go any way in providing truth, justice and friendship? Sonny, what are your thoughts?

Sonny Inbaraj: What I personally feel is that this Truth and Friendship Commission would only create divisions in East Timor. The Timorese people want to move forward, they want to put the past behind, but when this issue looms in your mind, an issue which hasn't been addressed this whole traumatic issue, it becomes quite difficult to move forward, to say let's forget the past and let's concentrate on the future.

Bambang Harymurti: This is going to be two democratic societies finding a solution, it's going to be messy, it's going to take time, it's going to not to satisfy everyone, but this is some of the process that we hope at one point will somehow get a closure for the majority of the people on both sides.

Grace Phan: Max, truth, friendship, justice, will we see any of these?

Max Stahl: I'd be very surprised if you get much truth, certainly there'll be no justice. As far as friendship is concerned, the worry about that is if the Indonesian people in the military refuse to cooperate, if they demand as it seems that some of these terms and references imply that the East Timorese members should as it were sign up to a sort of agreement whereby people like the general Wiranto and others will be explicitly absolved of responsibility, and there is a clause in these references which makes you worry that that might be what's implied. If that is the case then the President here and the Foreign Minister, both people of great international status and considerable integrity will be faced with a horrible choice, either they have to demand from the Indonesians something much more serious, which won't be possibly well received by these people and won't be conducive to friendship, or they themselves have to sign up to something which will greatly reduce their credibility, internationally and internally in East Timor. I think this is a very awkward choice and it may well be one that does not produce much friendship.

Grace Phan: Thank you all very much indeed, from Jakarta, Bambang Harymurti, Editor-in-Chief of 'Tempo Magazine'. From Dili, video journalist Max Stahl, and from Bangkok, Sonny Inbaraj, Bureau Chief, 'Interpress Services', he's also a former media advisor to East Timor's Foreign Minister, Jose Ramos Horta.

Coming up after the break, matters of opinion, other issues concerning Asia this last week as viewed by the media.

[Ommitted - JB.]

And that's our program tonight. Please do visit our website, abcasiapacific.com/editors. You can check our program times and also take part in our online poll, our question this week is, will the Truth and Friendship Commission bring Indonesia and East Timor closer to reconciliation? You can vote anytime, the results are tabulated live.

For now I'm Grace Phan in Singapore wishing you goodnight.