Tony Jones: Back now to our top story, the Colonel Collins affair and the Government's attempts to deal with it.

As we said earlier, the Defence Minister tonight released an internal legal review by a Melbourne QC that's highly sceptical of the Collins allegations. But do we now have the whole story?

Or are there other opinions from senior military lawyers we haven't been told about? I spoke to Senator Hill in Canberra just a short time ago.

Tony Jones: Robert Hill, as the Minister responsible you must be shocked by the most serious claims made by the Army's top intelligence analyst, Lieutenant-Colonel Collins?

Senator Robert Hill, defence minister: Well, I'm disappointed that the whole matter is raising its head again, but it's Colonel Collins' right, as any citizen, to write to the Prime Minister to express grievances.

Jones: Are you shocked by his allegation though, these are very serious grievances? They're not simple matters that can just be brushed aside.

Hill: Well, his principal grievance dates back to 1998 as an Army intelligence analyst.

He had different views or different interpretations on certain events occurring in East Timor, different from some others within defence, and he was unhappy about the way in which his views were dealt with.

As a result of that, he wrote to my predecessor and asked that the matter be referred to the independent umpire, the Inspector-General for Intelligence and Security, Mr Blick, and that was duly done and he studied the matter for some two years and reported back that, although Colonel Collins's views were genuinely held, they weren't substantiated by the evidence.

Jones: Alright, what do you say to the report that was done by the reviewing officer, Captain Toohey?

Hill: Well, I don't know if it's for me to say. He was to investigate the matter as part of that military justice system, to redress the grievance. He did that and he made a lot of findings that were in support of Colonel Collins.

That was then reviewed by a senior Queens Counsel, who's a consultant to the defence legal service, who found that the evidence as presented didn't support all of those findings. You know, it's been continuing down that path within the military justice system.

So, what I'm saying is that I'm disappointed that it's still going [on], what, some six years since it started, and I'm disappointed that it's now reached the stage where Colonel Collins, who's a respected military officer, has felt that he needs to take it to the Prime Minister.

Jones: Tonight you've released the review of the Toohey report by Colonel Tracey, a Melbourne QC. Why have you done that?

Hill: Because the article in the Bulletin gave great detail to the findings of Mr Toohey and through that was very critical of other officers in the department and I believe that it's important to be fair to both sides or, you might say in this instance, all sides, and that could only be achieved if both sides of the case are on the public record.

Jones: All right, there may be more than two sides in fact. Before we go into any further detail, can I ask you another question, is Colonel Tracey's review, the one you've now made public, the only review that was done?

Hill: Well, I've talked about the AGIS reviews. If you're talking about within the military justice system...

Jones: Was it the only review that was done of Captain Toohey's report?

Hill: Ah, another legal officer, a Mr Brown, in effect processed the report as is necessary under the defence regulations.

Jones: That's Colonel Brown?

Hill: I think it's Colonel Brown, yes, Brown, anyway, who's another legal officer. And then it worked its way up the chain up to General Cosgrove because the findings of Mr Toohey went well beyond matters within the lower command chain.

Jones: But you've now released one review of the Toohey report but not the other one?

Hill: Well, I don't know that it is a review as such, that was what I was trying to say, I'm quite happy that everything's on the public record because I think after the Toohey report has been released publicly in great detail, it is important that all of the arguments are presented and understood. I'm not trying to hide from any of that, I'm trying to actually assist in that.

Jones: Will you now release the review of the Toohey report which was done by Colonel Brown, which we haven't yet seen?

Hill: Well I need to check that for privacy and so forth as I did with Mr Tracy but I don't want any secrets in this matter, I want a well-informed debate and I want all of those who have been criticised, in effect to be treated fairly.

Jones: Was it a fact that General Cosgrove was in a dilemma because he actually had two reviews of the Toohey report, one of them favourable and one of them not favourable?

Hill: No, I think what he had before him from the Melbourne QC was really the detailed analysis of the Toohey report. He sought that because of the gravity of the issues concerned.

Jones: But, Minister, this is our understanding of the situation. We've got Captain Toohey's report. It was first submitted to the commissioning lawyer, Lieutenant Colonel Tina Mathewson, she found no problem with it apparently.

It then was sent to review to another senior military lawyer, Colonel Brown. He apparently found no problem with it. It was then sent to another lawyer, a QC in Melbourne in this case. Was the military...

Hill: The consultant to the defence legal services, yes.

Jones: Was the military here shopping around for a legal report which somehow undermined what captain Toohey said?

Hill: Well, that's not the way that I read the papers today. Bear in mind I only saw these papers today for the first time because this was a matter within the military justice system.

It hadn't reached me. It would only reach me if Colonel Collins, for example, was dissatisfied with that process and in effect went to me as a form of appeal.

But on the basis of what I read today, there was no issue of shopping around. The issue was General Cosgrove being fully informed of both the law and the facts as applied to the law before he made his decisions.

Jones: Would you agree that Colonel Tracey's report tends to undermine the Toohey report or review of these matters, the investigation, whereas Colonel Brown's findings are quite different?

Hill: Yes, well, as I said the Colonel Brown one, as I read the papers, was really a process matter required under the regulations. The detailed analysis of Mr Toohey's investigation was that there was carried out by the Melbourne Queens Counsel at the request of General Cosgrove.

Jones: You're going to put the findings of all these lawyers on the table are you now, make them all public because it appears we have one, two, three, military lawyers involved here and then this is before you get to the QC who finally says that he doesn't like the Toohey report?

Hill: Well, as I said, I think you've got to be fair to everybody and I don't want to see anything hidden. I obviously have to do what I did with Tracey and check the issues of law and privacy, but subject to that, I think that the more information that's available the better.

Jones: All right, it is obviously a great embarrassment to the Government this whole thing.

Hill: No, hang on. I don't think it's an embarrassment to government. I think it's a regrettable matter that has been going since 1998 and that differences that are held within the department can reach this level. I think that that is disappointing.

Jones: Let's turn though, if you say it's not embarrassing, let's turn to some of the most serious allegations made by Colonel Collins accepted as fact by Captain Toohey, that the head of the DIO cut off the flow of intelligence to officers serving in East Timor for a period of at least 24 hours.

Hill: Well, I think firstly you've got to acknowledge, as you seem to be reluctant to do, that this has been judged by the umpire, the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security who looked at these facts for some two years and found that the case that Colonel Collins was seeking to make against the DIO was not substantiated.

Jones: You say I'm reluctant to do that but we're going here on what we've seen in Captain Toohey's review and he accepts all this as fact. Could, if that's true, could it have put at risk the lives of Australian soldiers in East Timor if the flow of intelligence was cut off when they're in a war-like situation?

Hill: Well, if that had been a finding of the Inspector-General I would have expected it to have been recorded as such and that would have been a very serious finding.

Jones: But you don't accept it as a finding of Captain Toohey?

Hill: No, what I'm saying is you have two process here. You have the umpire who has a statutory authority, who has power to gain evidence, who's put there to give public confidence to the intelligence process, who looked at this issue for a period of two years, made a finding and reported to the Parliament and his finding in relation to DIO was that the facts weren't substantiated. His finding in relation to Colonel Collins was that he did genuinely hold these views.

Jones: Would you agree that it is a problem for the Defence Minister if a number of senior military officers, including a whole group of lawyers, appear to disagree with the Inspector-General and make a case strongly supporting the allegations that Colonel Collins has made?

Hill: Well, I think the whole thing, I've said, is regrettable, that it's been going since 1998 and it's now ending back with the successor to Mr Blick, the new Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, who is another lawyer, a senior lawyer, from the Commonwealth Attorney-General's department.

He will now have the opportunity not only to look at Mr Blick's report but also the Toohey report and the assessments of the Toohey report. This is designed to bring public confidence to the process.

Jones: Senator Hill, we're talking a lot about process here. Let's get to the allegations because they are so serious. The allegation is that these soldiers in East Timor were cut off from the joint intelligence support system, I understand in December of 1999.

If that intelligence that included details of TNI movements or militia movements, it could have saved lives or threatened lives if they didn't have it?

Hill: You're asking me to pass judgment on a situation that occurred many years before, that has been thoroughly investigated by the proper investigating authorities both through the public system and through the military justice system. I don't think it's proper for you to ask me that and I think it would be highly improper for me to try and answer it.

Jones: Does it worry you that Captain Toohey described the head of the DIO, Frank Lewincamp, as not a credible witness because of his strong dislike for Colonel Collins?

Hill: Well, that would, of course, worry me, but the advisor to the defence legal services said that that's not substantiated by the facts.

Jones: Captain Toohey concluded that a lobby in the DIO distorts intelligence apparently because of government policy, this concerns you, which overlooks atrocities and terrorist activities committed by the TNI?

Hill: Well, this Government is not interested in distorting intelligence. The last thing I would want to do would be to try and influence DIO in any way because I need to rely on their objective professional judgments. They know that. I know that. Colonel Collins might hold that view but that is not fact.

Jones: Do you reject Colonel Collins' allegations?

Hill: I accept the determination of the umpire, Mr Blick, the statutory officer who's put in place to give the public confidence in the system. Now, I'm sorry.

I regret that this matter hasn't been able to be resolved to the satisfaction of Colonel Collins. It has now gone again to the new Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security and I hope out of that process, Colonel Collins will be satisfied.

Jones: To satisfy Colonel Collins, apparently you'd have to have a royal commission into what he regards as an entire series of intelligence failures going back many years but most recently dealing with WMD and with the Bali bombing.

Hill: Well, that was not Colonel Collins' grievance.

Jones: It is now. I'm asking you to respond to it because it is his grievance now and he's the most senior intelligence analyst in the army and he's saying there've been terrible intelligence failures?

Hill: His disappointment has led him ultimately to write to the Prime Minister and say in effect that he thinks the whole intelligence system is flawed.

Now I could say to you that we have Mr Flood looking at the issue of the intelligence agencies but my experience has been that our intelligence agencies are very professional, very competent, very genuine in their efforts and I regret that this matter hasn't been able to be resolved to the satisfaction of Colonel Collins.

But it actually was referred to the party that he asked it to be referred to, which was the Inspector-General.

Jones: Do you believe, as General Cosgrove does and wrote in his reference for Colonel Collins, that he is an honest and moral man?

Hill: I accept Cosgrove's judgment obviously. General Cosgrove, he wrote that, I think, when he was chief of the army, he obviously knew Colonel Collins well from their experience in East Timor. I don't quarrel with that at all. I don't seek to blame in this matter.

Jones: I understand what you're saying but why would an honest moral man, a man at the top of his game, the army's most senior military intelligence analyst, why would he make these sort of allegations if he didn't believe them to be true? And if he does, shouldn't that worry you as the minister?

Hill: The Inspector-General's accepted that Colonel Collins was genuine in his beliefs, but what he said after two years of investigation was that they weren't substantiated by the facts.

Obviously, Colonel Collins is dissatisfied with that outcome. He's gone through other processes to seek a different outcome.

As I said, it is now back with the new Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security. He will look at not only the previous report but also the work that's been done through the military justice system and I hope that that will satisfy Colonel Collins because we don't want this matter to go on indefinitely.

Jones: Senator Hill, we are out of time. We thank you very much for taking the time to come and talk to us tonight.

Hill: Thank you.