Xanana Gusmao, ex-leader of the East Timorese guerrilla fighters who reject integration with Indonesia, has said that the Suharto regime is responsible for most of the problems in East Timor. "The people of East Timor will not carry out an act of revenge against Indonesia, because it is not the Indonesian people who are in the wrong", he told Iwan Setiawan from TEMPO Interactive, who met with him in Cipinang prison, East Jakarta, on Wednesday June 24, 1998. This is the interview with him.

Question: Apparently Habibie is to make East Timor a special region. Do you agree with this? Answer: I think that the provision of any kind of status is [little more than] a bribe from the Indonesian government to the people of East Timor. This is not what the people of East Timor desire. What we want is the right to determine our own lives. With this offer the government hopes to "by-off" the people of East Timor so that they will be faithful to the Indonesian government.

Question: Are there not a number of parties in East Timor who support the idea?

Answer: Those who support Habbie's idea are parties which have previously agreed with the integration of East Timor with Indonesia. But they do not represent the majority of the East Timorese people, because the majority of East Timorese people do not support the idea.

Question: What do you actually mean by the right to determine your own lives?

Answer: The best thing for the East Timorese and also for the government of Indonesia to resolve the problem of East Timor is if the government gives the people of East Timor the freedom to choose their own future. This mean giving the people of East Timor the right to choose if they want to be an independent country or be part of Indonesia. So what the people what is a referendum.

Question: Why must it be a referendum?

Answer: Because that is the most fair way for us and the Indonesian government. Furthermore, according to the [Indonesian 1945] constitution, for a country which has been colonised such as East Timor, resolution through a referendum is valid. Both according to international law and the United Nations. They acknowledge that a referendum to resolve the issue is the best way. Question: Perhaps the government is worried that if a referendum is held, East Timor will become an independent country, and the Timorese people will take vengeance?

Answer: I think that those kind of fears are exaggerated. I know that the East Timorese people have no desire to retaliate against what we have experienced. The East Timorese people at the moment understand that the Indonesian government's military invasion of East Timor was a historical mistake. The one who is most responsible for the East Timor problem is the government of Indonesia under the Suharto, not the Indonesian people.

Answer: Conditions now are very different. Suharto has resigned. And because geographically, East Timor is closer to Indonesia than Australia, we are certain to want to work with Indonesia to develop East Timor in the future. There are also those who are of the opinion that it would be difficult for East Timor the develop as an independent country, because its natural resources are limited. Perhaps this is true but don't forget that we still have oil. Aside from this, if Indonesia, with its extensive natural resources can ask for international help, why can't East Timor also do so.

Question: What if after a referendum the majority of the East Timorese people want to integrate with Indonesia?

Answer: If that is the result, I will support it.

Question: But won't it be difficult if you want a referendum [to be held] within [such] a short time?

Answer: Yeh, I understand. What has become the goal of the struggle of the East Timorese people is clearly difficult for the Indonesian government [to accept]. But what is the difference between this and the demands of pro-democracy groups, who in general are demanding change in a relatively short and which has to be fulfilled. I think that the government could allow a referendum for the people of East Timor, not right now, but in five or ten more years.

Question: On what grounds? Answer: I am aware that the tasks which are being carried out by the Indonesian government under the leadership of Habibie are heavy. They must be able to resolve the [economic] crisis which Indonesia is currently experiencing. Another reason is that in five or ten years, there are a number of issues which will have to be carried out by the Indonesian government to prepare East Timor to hold a referendum.

Question: What preparations are needed?

Answer: The most important thing for the Indonesian government is to be able to improve the economic potential of the East Timorese people. Not by sending large conglomerates from Jakarta but by building an economy who's benefits can be enjoyed by the majority of the East Timorese people, not a few people.

The government also needs to prepare secure social and political conditions for the people of East Timor, they must be given [political] space to do as they wish, except criminal acts. For example, the East Timorese people being allowed to travel to any part of Indonesia. As well as this, building an infrastructure to support the people's lives.

Question: Hasn't the Indonesian government already spent a great deal of money on the development of East Timor?

Answer: Development by the Indonesian government has never involved the people. The government has only built what is according to them, is good, while in reality this has not been important or needed by the people of East Timor. So if the government really wants to help the East Timorese develop, it must listen to the aspirations of the East Timorese.

Question: Have there not been many discussions between the government and East Timorese leaders?

Answer: Yes, that is true. But in discussing future policies which are to be carried out by the Indonesian government in East Timor, they often limit themselves. So the dialogue is often unjust. So far, this dialogue has only been "lip-service".

Question: How do you assess efforts by Bishop Belo?

Answer: To date he has not just been me who has struggled for East Timor. Bishop Belo has also done this. But because he is a man of the cloth, the method he has chosen has been different. Similarly with Ramos Horta, he has also struggled in a different way. I think that each East Timorese person is free to choose the means by which they struggle for East Timor in as much as they take responsibility for what they do.

Question: What about the position of ABRI [the Indonesian armed forces] at the moment?

Answer: It would be best if ABRI learnt to respect the rights of the East Timorese people. This means that if the desires of the East Timorese are really different [from the Indonesian government] they must accept it. After the reform [process is complete] it would be best if ABRI just became the protectors of society. To no stop carrying out acts of violence and repression against the East Timorese. If a problem occurs, the resolution must be through legal channels.

Question: What if the military continue to use the security approach to resolve problems in East Timor?

Answer: If the military [continue to] use the security approach to resolve problems, perhaps it will be more difficult for the Habibie government to hope for international support, such as from the International Monetary Fund. The violent methods such as those used by the military in East Timor when Suharto was in power, have been condemned by the international community, because they violate human rights.

Question: Apparently, soon you will also be released?

Answer: The truth is that whether I am release or not is not very important. Don't think that the struggle of the East Timorese people is dependent upon me. Because what is being struggled for in East Timor is not just me, but the millions of East Timorese people. If my release can truly help in accelerating the goals of the East Timorese people, I am ready. If it is only "sweet talk" by the government, what is the use.

Question: What kind of strategy do you think should be chosen by the people of East Timor at the moment to struggle?

Answer: The blood [and suffering] which has been endured for the last 20 years has not been for nothing. I hope that the people of East Timor can be patient, because now the results of this struggle are moving towards what we have hoped for. What is most important is not to give up the struggle, and most importantly to look for a peaceful way to take the struggle forward.

[Translated by James Balowski]