Indonesia's best-known labor leader, Muchtar Pakpahan, has long been a vocal opponent of President Suharto. Detained since mid- 1996, the 44-year-old head of the outlawed Indonesian Prosperity Trade Union (known as SBSI), is currently on trial for the crime of insulting President Suharto. If convicted, he faces the death penalty. Singapore Bureau Manager Michael Shari met him for an unprecedented interview on Jan. 8. in his Jakarta hospital room, where he is undergoing respiratory tests.

Q: Are you concerned about the possibility of violence?

A: People's anger at Suharto's family will rise, and they might try to kill him. It is very possible, but I don't want it to happen. If there is any unrest here, we will kill each other, and the ethnic Chinese will be the first target.

Q: What do you think would be the trigger for unrest?

A: A company fires laborers and gives them compensation so they go home. But after that, what happens? There is no work, and this is the problem. And if Suharto continues as president, it can trigger the worst social unrest. My goal is to keep Suharto from ruling any longer. I would nominate Tutut [Siti Hardi-yanti Rukmana, Suharto's eldest daughter]. As long as Suharto is alive, she can use her charisma to influence the military. I do not like her, but that is the solution.

Q: What do you think would be the best solution for Indonesia's problems?

A: Stop the businesses of Suharto's sons and daughters. And I would appeal to all Indonesians who are investing their money abroad to bring back their money to help the situation here. According to the experts, $80 billion has been transferred abroad. And [we must] support the ministers who are working hard such as [Finance Minister] Mar'ie Muhammad.

Q: Is this the right time to organize strikes or protests?

A: Possibly. But it depends on the situation and what the reason is.

Q: Could the disintegration of Indonesia's economy lead to social disintegration?

A: Very possibly. Jealousy is increasing now, jealousy between ethnic groups, between religious groups, between [Indonesia's 17,000] islands, and between regions. 60% of the money is in Jakarta; only 40% is in the other 26 provinces.

Q: What can your organization do to help?

A: Prevent the killing of whatever ethnic group, like the Chinese. We continue training and educating our members [in nonviolence].

Q: Can you continue to organize the labor movement from the hospital or from prison?

A: Yes. I am the leader of the SBSI. Even though I am in jail or here, the program and functions are going on.

Q: Is there pressure now from the army or police?

A: Yes. Whenever we organize a meeting, the military is there and stops us. Every month, my friends are detained, but only for one or two nights. Some of them are beaten. The military confiscated all [our] documents in September, 1997.

Q: Do you think you'll be convicted?

A: I can't predict it, even though I am an expert in the law. It's not a legal case but a power case. There is no rule of law [in Indonesia], but rather a power game.

Q: Are you worried?

A: No, because the truth is on my side.